[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Goffart-J.Svennung-midnight sun-

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
>
> > Jordanes account of the mid-night sun (see below) reads very
> > similarly.
> >
> > Jordanes, Getica (19) "...In the
> > northern part of the island the race of the Adogit live, who are
> said
> > to have continual light in midsummer for forty days and nights,
and
> > who likewise have no clear light in the winter season for the same
> > number of days and nights. (20) By reason of this alternation of
> > sorrow and joy they are like no other race in their sufferings and
> > blessings. And why? Because during the longer days they see the
sun
> > returning to the east along the rim of the horizon, but on the
> shorter
> > days it is not thus seen. The sun shows itself differently because
> it
> > is passing through the southern signs, and whereas to us the sun
> seem
> > to rise from below, it seems to go around them along the edge of
> the
> > earth."
> ........
>
> > Both knew the length of 40 days and nights. Both described the sun
> > passing along the horizon. And both will likely have used the same
> > ancient geographical source. Perhaps Procopius really did speak to
> > somebody who had figured out how to measure the length of the day
> > in this circumstances, or who even came from there; impossible to
> say
> > given the bias that he displayed in other comments.
>
> ........
>
> Dirk,
>
> This was just what I expected, when I asked.


Troels,

why bother asking then?



>
> Originally your claim was, when you rejected Procopius, that his
> descriptions from Scandinavia were just copied from earlier
> geographers. You have repeated this so often that it sounded like a
> fact, and this was one of your important arguments against his
> description of the migration to Thule and the returning princes and
> warriors.


I said that scholars like Hachmann and Svennung suggested that there
was common set of geographical sources available at the time, from
which these authors drew. Also I stated that it can not be excluded
that Procopius got first hand information as well. It is hard to see
what you try to say with this passage.





>
> The example you bring us now is by Jordanes, who probably wrote at
> the same time and in the same town as Procopius.
>
> Procopius had two elements (The festival 5 days before the new light
> and the measuring of time) which are not found in the description by
> Jordanes. Opposite I agree that the 40 days probably were from the
> same source. Consequently Procopius could not be based on Jordanes
as
> the only source, but Jordanes could be based on Procopius or one or
> more common sources in Byzanz.



I totally agree and I never said anything to the contrary.




>
> Procopius own information about his source, which is confirmed by
his
> exact information, is in no way contradicted by Jordanes, and it
> would not be contradicted even if Jordanes words were older or were
> based on an older description, as Procopius might have combined
> different sources. If the source used by Jordanes was only at second
> hand and Procopius had the opportunity to talk to eyewitnesses
> earlier, we will never know, and it is not important in this
> connection.
>
> Your final remark indicate, that you have realised that yourself,
and
> therefore it is not surprising to read your latest statement:

>
> > Also, I said that it is not impossible that Procopius really did
> speak
> > to somebody from Scandinavia. However, the fact that knowledge
> about
> > Scandinavia was extremely limited at his time indicates (according
> to
> > Hachmann, Svennung and others) that direct contact was very rare.
> >
>
> Normally you explain all signs of international connections in
> Scandinavia with trade connections. Above you indirectly accept,
that
> if Procopius was so well-informed as he appears, he most likely met
> some of the Heruls he told had returned from a place next to the
> Gautoi - as "direct contact was very rare". This is confirmed by his
> pluralis - he did not talk to a merchant.


He does not say a word about his source. There is no indication that
he spoke to Heruls from Scandinavia. Firstly, given his low opinion of
Heruls, he as a member of the Roman senatorial elite would likely not
want to be seen mingling with barbarians like Heruls. Secondly, since
he focused quite a lot on Heruls he might have mentioned them by their
 tribal name if he had spoken to them.





>
> However my purpose was not to prove, that Procopius was right. My
> purpose was just to let you demonstrate, that the earlier mentioned
> claim about the old geographers you have used again and again
against
> Procopius until now from your side has been based on pure
> speculation - at least regarding his knowledge of Scandinavia.



Actually, it was you who suggested constantly that Procopius'
desicription of the midnight sun was information exclusive to him and
evidence that he had first hand information about the situation in
Scandinavia. All I did was pointing to the works of some scholars who
suggest otherwise.




>
> Maybe we should investigate other parts of his information from
> Scandinavia, but first I will pick up one of your remarks in this
> thread about his description of the Heruls, which you also call
> unthrustworty:
>
> > I agree, it is possible and some authors have argued that they
> > picked up some Eastern customs to this effect. However, as
> > Cameron states the 'burning alive' bit is not believable, and
> > the whole practice is likely an ethnographic cliche.
>
> I hope for Cameron that this argument is your own.


No it is directly from Prof. Cameron, as you will know since you
indicated that you read the book.



Procopios did not
> talk about "burning alive". The man was killed by a dagger and
burned
> afterwards at a pile of wood.



Cameron referes to this passage -when she writes about Procopius'
ethnographic cliches - in the following words ".... or how the Heruls
dispatch the sick by sending a stranger to kill them after tying them
in trees and then burning them, trees and all." (p.218f)

I don't have my copy of Procopius at hand, but I tend to believe that
Cameron,- as foremost expert of Procopius - will have read him in the
original language and that her reading is the latest interpretation of
the original text.




> Actually old and sick people sometimes
> commit suicide - and sometimes they get help against the law - even
> in our modern societies. There is nothing improbable in this
> description from Procopius and as Bertil and Einar have demonstrated
> they were usual in old Scandinavian literature and myths.
>
> I have once seen the unholy mating being explained with
homosexuality
> among the mercenaries. Besides the rumour about the asses, which
> character must have been very obvious to everybody, I do not see
> unusual examples as the people Procopius described were regarded as
> traitors. It is not surprising that he choosed the worst examples.



Ok, that maybe your opinion. If you read Cameron carefully, you will
find that she interprets this very differently. I go with her
interpretation.

cheers,
Dirk





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