[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Goffart-J.Svennung-midnight sun-

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> Dirk,
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
>
> > Actually, it was you who suggested constantly that Procopius'
> > desicription of the midnight sun was information exclusive to
> > him
>
> I said the midnightsun was known, but his description did not appear
> just to be a quote of an earlier geographer.


As I said earlier, scholars like Hachmann and Svennung think
differently.





> > >
> > > Normally you explain all signs of international connections in
> > > Scandinavia with trade connections. Above you indirectly accept,
> > that
> > > if Procopius was so well-informed as he appears, he most likely
> met
> > > some of the Heruls he told had returned from a place next to the
> > > Gautoi - as "direct contact was very rare". This is confirmed by
> his
> > > pluralis - he did not talk to a merchant.
> >
> >
> > He does not say a word about his source. There is no indication
> that
> > he spoke to Heruls from Scandinavia. Firstly, given his low
opinion
> of
> > Heruls, he as a member of the Roman senatorial elite would likely
> not
> > want to be seen mingling with barbarians like Heruls. Secondly,
> since
> > he focused quite a lot on Heruls he might have mentioned them by
> their
> >  tribal name if he had spoken to them.
>
>
> Your conclusion should be exactly opposite. As he wrote in a chapter
> about Heruls who returned from Scandinavia, he should more likely
> mention the tribal name of the returning people being questioned if
> they were not Heruls, than if they were Heruls.



You cannot seriously assume that he was speaking of 'returning Heruls'
when he wrote about people from the island of Thule coming to
Constantinopel.




>
> By the way Heruls like Suartuas were high ranking Roman generals,
and
> the Roman General of the forces in Illyricum was son-in-law of the
> Herul Philemuth. As a secretary of Bellisarius Procopius had to
> mingle with Heruls even if he did not like it - and he was too
> curious to keep away.


That is true, and that makes his vividly expressed hatred and
biaseness against Heruls especially significant.





>
>
> > > > .........
> > > > Cameron states the 'burning alive' bit is not believable, and
> > > > the whole practice is likely an ethnographic cliche.
> > >
> > > I hope for Cameron that this argument is your own.
> >
> > No it is directly from Prof. Cameron, as you will know since you
> > indicated that you read the book.
>
> My source was Procopius' own text in Dewing's translation. I did not
> have Cameron's book at hand, but neither did I remember having read
> your version,


Read pp 228 and you will see that Cameron shows that Procopoius was
simply reporting what she calls 'ethnographic cliches' in this
context.





and I have in your later mail to Einar noticed that
> your argumentation has fallen into pieces with your remark:
>
> > If I said 'burning alive' earlier, I was likely wrong.


No it has not 'fallen into pieces'. I admitted that I may have made a
mistake, which should be possible in a decent debate. Since I have
simply repeated Cameron's argument in this case, you imply that you
know more about Procopius than she does.




>
> With this latest example of your firm statements about the Heruls
and
> Scandinavia causing "my behavior" I will leave this thread.



As I said one must be allowed to make an honest mistake (if indeed I
made that one). If this explains 'your behaviour' then that is not my
problem.


cheers
Dirk


BTW, I got two replies from Swedish archaeologists whom I contacted
directly. One of them worked at the royal tombs at Uppsala, but both
of them completely reject the idea of East Germans (let alone Heruls)
having anything to do with Sweden. In fact, one of them calls this a
'resilient myths' that has absolutely no foundation in archaeology.





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