[gothic-l] Re: Trailing the Eruli in the North

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The argument in general seems to be a valid one, however, a few
> > problems remain. Firstly,  by the same argument one could
contruct
> an
> > Ostrogothic migration to Germany. A large number of Ostrogothic
> > tremisses have been found in the Klepsau cemetary, and a hoard of
> > Ostrogothic silver siliquae have been found at Mengen, with many
> > stray finds in between, indicating a migratory path via Bavaria
to
> > the Rhine. There was of course no migration of Ostrogoths to the
> > Rhine and the finds cannot be used to demonstrate such a
migration.
>
> How can you be sure a group did not settle near Klepsau?



We can probably not be 100% certain, but the so called diagnostic
archaeology cannot detect an Ostrogothic presence in this area of
Klepsau. An this well research cemetary is called Frankish. The
Ostrogothic coins came their by trade, which can be seen by the fact
that there are also many Frankish, Frisian and Alamanic tremisses and
trientes in the cemetary. Ostrogothic coins make up the bulk of it,
though, because the mints of Rome and Ravenna were by far the most
prolific. The coins were likely carefully selected as grave deposits
and charon-pennies, similar to Sutton Hoo.

The Ostrogothic coin hort of Mengen is of a different type, because
it consisted of Silver coins and the owner might have been a merchant
from Northern Italy.





>
> > The example shows that even apparently much better find evidence
do
> > not necessitate a migration.
> >
> > There are a few serious problems with the finds of Anastasius'
> solidi
> > in Scandinavia as proof of Herulic migrations, though. Firstly,
we
> > hear from Procopius that the Heruli were completely defeated. He
> even
> > reports about hunger and poverty in the aftermaths of the defeat.
> So
> > why would they carry gold denominations if they were so poor? And
> why
> > would the victorious Langobards allow them to to so?
>
> Even if a whole army was killed - which it of course wasn't - there
> was still a people, and because the people was poor this does not
> mean that the nobles and royal family had no money.


Ok, that might be the case. However, on average I would not expect to
trail the path of a defeated and expelled group by the gold that they
carry.





>
> >
> > Also, all gold denominations found in Scandinavia are from the
> > Constantinopel mints - without a single execption. Since the
Heruls
> > are supposed to have come from Moravia, one would expect coins
from
> > western mints like Sirmium, but especially from Ravenna and Rome,
> as
> > they used to be allied with the Ostrogoths.



> Should Theodoric pay Roduulf to be his son-in-arms? The Heruls were
> mercenaries, when Odoaker became a king, and a coin with Odoaker is
> found in King Ottars Mound in Uppland.


Are you sure about this? The coins of Odoaker are excessively rare
and all known pieces (only about 3 or 4 are in exsistence, are well
recorded). Grierson & Blackburn (Early Medieval Coinage, vol.1) know
of no Odoaker half-siliqua from Sweden. In fact, only one single
Ostrogothic coin has ever been found in Sweden (a very worn quarter-
siliqua of Theoderic). Can you tell me more about this Odoaker-coin
in Uppland please.





You do not know from where
> they got their tribute and mercenary wages in Moravia at a time
when
> Byzans was the great power in Europe.


That might be true, but if Constantinopel-made coinage was flowing to
Moravia at that time - as wages or subsidies- I would have expected
finds of such coins to emerge especially from these areas. In
general, I said that I don't dispute the possibility of coin finds as
support for a migration, but think that there are a number of
problems with it as well.


Dirk




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