[gothic-l] Re: Ostrogoths in Italy, Britain or China (or on the moon?)

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., trbrandt at p... wrote:
 
> Where did Procopius claim the Heruls originally came from 
> Thule/Scandinavia? As far as I know he only wrote their ancestral 
> homes were beyond the Ister (Danube). If a Scandinavian origin was 
> his point, why didn't he write it? 


Hello Troels,

a Scandinavian origin was not Procopius' point at all. In the 
Greco-Roman mind-set Thule like Scandza were abstract concepts of 
mysterious islands in the northern ocean with cave-dwelling canibals 
and all, where all northern barbarians simply came from. We know that 
Procopius knew next to nothing about the real geography of Europe and 
therefore gave completely wrong geographical descriptions even of 
territories as close by as the Balkan. 



> Actually the Illyrian Heruls who 
> didn't serve Justinian escaped to the Gepides in Dacia beyond the 
> Ister just before Procopius finished his "Gothic Wars". Therefore 
the 
> claimed purpose was fulfilled without a lie about Thule.



Again, Procopius was not interested in relating 'real' history in our 
sense, but to argue a case in contemporary Roman-barbarian relations, 
using 'history' as a medium of argumentation. Thus, he didn't lie 
about the Heruls and Thule as it was common knowledge in the classical 
world that northern barbarians came from Thule or Scandza. In fact, 
Procopius was not even interested in Herul history as such. He was 
just interested in using their example to argue his case.  This form 
of argumentation through real and made-up history was a common 
practice in his time. 



 
> If the migration to Thule was a lie, why did he tell about a 
Herulian 
> king Datius returning from Thule to Illyria a few years before he 
> wrote his book? Wasn't it a little risky? As far as I can see he 
> would in this case loose all his credibility if someone knew the 
> Herulian mercenaries - which most of the army did. 



You should remember that Procopius' relied often on second and 
third-hand hear-say sources. Transparency was virtually nil and those 
he wrote for were most likely not interested in the real origin and 
whereabouts of some Heruls, but in his argument. Authors like 
Procopius, Jordanes and Paulus also included stories of Amazons and 
heros who single-handedly defeated armies and other fantastic stories. 
All this was just meant to illustrate  their points and nobody in his 
time would have doubted their credibility because of that.


 
> Some Scandinavian historians even regard a Herulian origin in 
> Scandinavia as a misreading of Jordanes. I can't say if this 
argument 
> has any value.


There is also a recent school of thought which is using Procopius' and 
Jordanes to show that the Heruls (re)- migrated to Masovia in modern 
northern Poland in order to account for the sudden emergence of the so 
called Masovia-Germanic culture in the 6th century. 

See for example:

V. I. Kulakov, "Mogil'niki zapadnoi chasti Mazurskogo poozer'ia 
konca  V-nachala VIII vv. " _Barbaricum_ 1 (1989),148-276; 
 
 -- "Gräber pruzzischer Stammesführer aus Warnikam," _Eurasia
 Antiqua_ 3 (1990), 595-628].

cheers
Dirk

 


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