[gothic-l] Re: Ostrogoths in Italy, Britain or China (or on the moon?)

[andreas.schwarcz at UNIVIE.AC.AT]

On 1 Feb 2001, at 16:09, dirk at smra.co.uk wrote:

> 
> (snip)
> 
>  No one went to Britain (or 
> to 
> > China or the moon, all equally improbable), because there was no
> > need to emigrate. Regards
> >           Andreas Schwarcz 
> 
> 
> Hello Andreas,
> 
> I certainly don't want to reopen the thread and I also agree that the
> Goths did not migrate to Britain. However, to give Tore's proposal
> some background one can refere to Procopius, who relates a negotiation
> between Belisarius and the Goths during the siege of Rome in 538AD. On
> this occasion, the Gothic proposal to have only Sicily as their home
> was countered by an offer of Britain, "which is far greater than
> Sicily, and was formerly subject to the Romans." The talks broke down
> and the idea of Goths going to Britain never surfaced again.

Hello Dirk,
this passage only means that Belisar answered the proposal of the 
Goths, who wanted an island which Belisar already had conquered, 
by an offer of an island that the Romans already had lost, which is 
not bargaining, but irony. To construe out of that a serious 
argument is pure nonsense and shows a lack of understanding of 
classical literature.  
> 
> While, Procopius is a notoriously unreliable informant and we don't
> know if this negotiations ever took place, the fact that it is
> reported in his "Wars"6.6, 27-36, puplished in 551AD, seems to give
> some credibility to the proposition that some people at this time may
> have thought about this alternative for the Goths. Unless of course,
> Belisarius used Britain figuratively in place of any 'unreachable
> land'. 

That Procopius did not even think of Britain as a land for gothic 
immigration is shown by De bello Gothico IV 20 f., where he gives 
a lot of fantastic stories  about Britain, but also mentions it as a 
land, from which the inhabitants, correctly named Angles, Jutes 
and Britans, emigrate in great number to the continent.

> Or, more likely the 'Britain-story' was invented as part of Procopius'
> argument in favour of returing all barbarians to their homelands (and
> we know from Jordanes that many people at this time thought that the
> Goths came from Britian). 

We do not know anything like that at all from Jordanes, who gives 
the land of origin as Skandza. And where did you find the funny 
idea that Procopius proposed to return all barbarians to their 
homelands? He was an old soldier and knew that the army needed 
them and used them as soldiers. Read procopius and Agathias 
and you will find that the armies of Justinian consisted of great 
numbers of all kinds of barbarians considered as true and loyal 
soldiers of the empire by those authors.
> 
> 
> cheers
> Dirk
> 
> PS: Goffart, "Narrators of Barbarian History"
 
Walter Goffart is a good friend of mine, and you will find that I 
edited one of his essays in "Anerkennung und Integration" and 
another one in "Das Reich und die Barbaren", but I am not 
convinced of everything in this book you cite.

Regards
              Andreas  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for
> more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/3398/_/981044162/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------_
> ->
> 
> You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank
> email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. Homepage:
> http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
> 
> 


Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
Universität Wien
Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
A-1010 Wien
Österreich
Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
Fax 0043/142-77/92-72

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups
Click here for more details
http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/3398/_/981112042/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html