[gothic-l] Re: Ostrogoths in Italy, Britain or China (or on the moon?)

[Tore Gannholm]

>Hello Tore,
>
>do you know what the source for this claim is that the Heruls came
>from modern Southern Denmark/North Germany? I know, older books like
>Felix Dahn 'Die Goten' make this claim, but I would like to know what
>the basis of it is. There was a discussion about a certain west
>Germanic influence in Gothic or something like this on this list or on
>the Germanic list. Maybe the Heruls are the explanation for this?
>

Most Swedish scolars were of that opinion
i.e.
von Friesen
Elias Wessen
Gad Rausing

>
>(I can't find that Procopius claims that
>they
>> originated from Thule) and when the Goths moved from the Vistula
>area to
>> the Black Sea area the Heruls followed in their steps. After that
>various
>> Roman sources tell about the Heruls together with or dominated by
>the Goths.
>> The Heruls as well as part of the Goths (Ostrogoths) were subdued by
>the
>> Huns. When Attila died on his wedding night and the Hun empire
>dissolved
>> the Heruls formed their own kingdom in present day Hungary. When
>they we
>> beaten by the Lombards about 505 Prokopius says that part of the
>tribe
>> moved to where they had heard there were good lands, Ultima Thule,
>the
>> farthest away lands known from the Roman Empire. (Iceland and
>Greenland
>> were not inhabited at that time.)
>>
>> Origin of Svear:
>> "The Heruls (jarlarna)
>
>
>
>Is 'jarlarna' supposed to be another name of the Heruls?


Thats my interpretation


>
>
>
>
>
>was a Scandinavian people that together with
>Gutans
>> or the Goths, as the Romans called them, ravaged the Black Sea, Asia
>Minor
>> and the Mediterranean from the 4th century. After having been
>subdued first
>> by the Goths and later by the Huns, those emigrated Heruls, middle
>of the
>> 5th, century founded a state in upper Hungary. There are several
>stories
>> how the Heruls ravaged the coasts of the Black Sea and the
>Mediterranean,
>> alone and together with the Goths, why they must be considered as
>good
>> seamen.
>
>
>
>I am not convinced of their seamanship. Hervig Wolfram (and
>Geroge Vernadsky) describes these sea attacks as a complete shambles,
>in which the Goths and Heruls relied on Borani and other local people
>to take them were they wanted to go.

Peter Heather writes in "The Goths" p 41 "At this point, the Dardanelles
was forced, and the raiders spilled out into the Aegean for the first time,
breaking up into three main groups. One, composed mostly of Heruli, landed
in the northern Balkans around Thessalonica. The second - including both
Goths and Heruli - devastated Attica, and the third rampaged through the
coastal hinterland of Asia Minor, probably led by the Gothic chieftains
Respa, Veduc and Thuruar. Rhodes and Cyprus were attacked, before the Goths
turned their attention to Side and Illium, and destroyed the temple of
Diana in Ephesus. The other raids were less successful."

>
>
>
>Also, I maybe wrong here, but if I remember correctly those Heruls at
>the sea of Azov are actually called Heluri (Greek for swamp-dweller).
>Are there other sources that confirm the identification of these
>Heluri with the Heruli?
>
>
>
>
>>They were sought after soldiers in the Roman Imperial
>Guards.
>> According to Roman sources they were a more primitive people than
>other
>> Germanic peoples. The troops of Odovakar that assumed power in the
>Western
>> Empire in 476 contained, according to sources, to a large extent
>Heruls.
>> That state was, however, soon overrun by the Ostrogoths.
>> Prokopios says (See note 2) that some years later the Herul state in
>upper
>> Hungary was smashed. He thinks of the Heruls, that had emigrated to
>the
>> south of Russia and to start with had been under the Ostrogoths and
>the
>> Huns but after the fall of the Hun Empire had erected an independent
>state
>> on the north side of the Danube on the border of present time Mähren
>and
>> Hungary. About the year 505, after quarrelling with the Lombards,
>they were
>> forced to leave this area. Some of the Heruls settled in Illyria
>under the
>> protection of the Eastroman Emperor, but others could not, says
>Prokopios,
>> decide to cross the Danube but settled in the furthest parts of the
>> inhabited world. They returned to Thule (the Scandinavian
>penin-sula) and
>> settled next to the Gauts at the same time as a powerful Svea state
>with
>> strong kings emerged in the Lake Mälar Area.
>> Guided by numerous members of its royalty they passed all the native
>lands
>> of the Slavic peoples (probably from lower Danube to upper Vistula
>and
>> further west), marched from here through a large part of vacant land
>and
>> came to a people called the Varner. From there they came to the sea,
>> crossed the sea and went to the island Thule where they settled.
>> Thule is a very large island, Prokopios continues, over ten times as
>large
>> as Britannia. The largest part is desolate, but in the inhabited
>parts
>> there are thirteen populous tribes, who each has a king. One
>populous tribe
>> was the Gauts and it was next to them that the Herulic newcomers
>settled.
>> Much later - guesses are both at the end of the 520s and the middle
>of the
>> 540s - it happened that the king of those Heruls remaining in the
>south was
>> killed and that these Heruls in order to get a new king of the old
>line
>> sent messengers to the part of the tribe that lived in Thule.
>
>
>
>
>Is that really plausible? They run out of kings and nobody of the
>elite is keen to take on the job? Instead they travel all over Europe
>to get a 'new' one to tell them what to do? History usually doesn't
>work like this, but who knows, maybe the Heruls were different.
>

Even Sweden has done such things in the 19th century. When they deposed
Gustav IV Adolf in 1809. The Swedes went to Denmark to find a new king. He
died and they went to Napoleon to get one of his generals Jean Baptist
Bernadotte.

>
>
>
>>Here
>they
>> found many of royal blood and chose the one they liked most. During
>the
>> journey south, however, he fell ill and died in the lands of the
>Danes. In
>> order not to return empty handed the messengers were forced once
>more to go
>> to Thule. By this action they became so much delayed that their
>principals
>> gave up hope and were persuaded by Emperor Justinianus to take as
>their
>> king a young Herul educated in Constantinople. When finally the
>messengers
>> from Thule returned with their proposed king, the imperial protégé
>was
>> deserted in favour of the newcomer."
>>
>> Note 2 (page 14)
>> Prokopios, who was born at the end of the 5th century, was a lawyer
>in
>> Constantinople and from the year 527 private secretary to the
>military
>> commander Belisarius on his campaigns against inter alia the
>Ostrogoths in
>> Italy. He says that there are 13 populous tribes in Thule (the
>Scandinavian
>> peninsula), each with its own king. He says: "A populous tribe among
>them
>> was the gautoi, next to where the arriving Heruls settled".
>Prokopios says
>> that the Heruls who lived in northern Hungary under Cæsar
>Anastasius'
>> (491-518) rule attacked the Lombards. However, they were beaten and
>their
>> king was killed. The Heruls were therefore (about 505) forced to
>leave
>> their homesteads. Some of them crossed the Danube into Roman
>territory,
>> where Anastasius allowed them to settle. The remaining part of the
>Heruls
>> moved northwards. Through the countries of the Varner
>
>
>
>
>Who are those Varner? possibly the Varnen in North-East Germany
>(modern Warne-muende?). But at the time of Procopius the Varnen had
>long vanished (absorbed into Saxons, Langobards and Thuringians) I
>thought.
>

In my translation of Prokopius by H.B Dewing I read in a note
"Or Varini, a tribe living in the coast near the mouth of the Rhine."

cheers Tore


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