[gothic-l] Re: Cultic origin as ethnicity

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

>
>
> Dear Dirk,
>
> It's a pity you can not read my book in spite of you having a copy.
>
I
> have argued a lot about these matters. In short the dependence of
the
> Celtic Lugii-group was in my wiew political and not cultic, as
Wolfram
> argues.When the Vandili were strong enough they broke loose.



Hi Ingemar,

the Vandili did no break loose from this group. In the first century
AD there was apparently no one tribe with the name Vandili, but the
name  Vandili was a collective name for several tribes (including
Lacringi, Victufali, Asdingi, Silingi, Helvecones, Narharnavales,
etc.), like the name Suevi was a collective name for many tribes. The
upheavals from the late 2nd century onwards resulted in ethnical
processess which let to the demise or merger of some smaller tribes.
These tribes than reverted to the group-name Vandili/Vandals as this
was a common-unifiying denomiator. This is exactly analogous to the
Suevi. The name Suevi was also a group name that became a specific
tribal name only during the migration period, when various Suevic
tribes like Marcomanni, Quadi, Semnones, Juthungi etc. seized to
exist.





The
same
> goes  for the Gothic dependancy of the Vandili - political - and
they
> also broke loose. Note that the burial customs differ between Goths
and
> Vandili. However the Goths and Vandili may have an earlier common
> background  having traces back to Gaut since both might be of Nordic
> ancestry.


There is no indication that the Vandili worshipped a god Gaut. Such a
god is not mentionend in the royal geneologies of the Vandals.



>The Vandili are supposed to come from Jutland as the Jutes
>and
> hence the  Vandili can have an original Gothic background in spite
of
> not mentioning themselves after the progenitor.


Vandili and Jutland? This is good old Gustav Kosinna again. The only
thing that links the Vandili to Jutland is the name similarity to
Vendsyssael (or so). Most authors today argue that there is nothing to
link the Vandili-Lugian group with northern Jutland. Marek Oledski
has shown that the Oder-Warthe culture (that is linked to the
Vandili-Lugii) owes nothing to north Jutish iron age cultures.







This could also be
true
> of Langobards having lived in the old cultic influence area of the
old
> Nordic Bronze Age cult  and the rising cult of Gaut.


Again, leading experts like Prof Ettel who worked all their lives with
 archaeological assemblages attributed to Langobards and even
proto-Langobards dating back to 600BC (Muehlen-Eichsen cemetary 600BC
to 100AD) say that there is no way that these people came from
Scandinavia. Of course they could have been influence from
Scandinavia, but especially the Muehlen-Eichsen cemetary shows that
most cultural influences came from the Celts in the south. Which is
only  logical considering that Celtic groups in even closer proximity
had reached a cultural development by 500BC (see princely graves of
Hochdorf 550BC and Glauburg 500BC) that would be reached in the North
only several hundreds of years later. In fact the first Germanic grave
that could be vaguely comparable to the Hochdorf and Glauburg graves
only appeared some 1000 years later.




>Also the
> Burgundians may have those connections.A  political, technical
influence
> from the Celtic oppida-culture does not mean these peoples could not
> have had Gaut as original creator.



Of course, but fact is that there is no indication whatsoever that the
Vandili worshipped Gaut. There is also no indication that the early
Gutones worshipped Gaut. Note that royal geneologies have often been
made up on the spot as it were.



 The common Gaut-background can be
as
> old as from about 500 BC and the Vandili where earlier omn the
continent
> than the Goths.


The Vandili have always been on the continent.


>Please also observe that certain areas of present
> Nortwestern Germany was part of the old Bronze Age culture area of
> Scandinavia.


That is again a very Scandinavia-centered view. Everything has to
originate from one centre and this centre is (of course) Scandinavia.
What is the evidence for parts of Northwestern Germany beeing part of
Scandinavian Bronze Age culture?



cheers,
Dirk

PS:  Oh dear, I am sure we will always disagree on these matters.



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