[gothic-l] Re: Odin / Religions (Was: Illerup)

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., trbrandt at p... wrote:
> Hi Dirk
>
> In my opinion the religions worshipping fertility and the Sun (known
> from the pictures of the Bronce Ages) in Scandinavia continued as
> fertility cults (Ingviones/Nerthus) and later maybe even in a
> creator/warrior cult (Gauts) in some turbulent areas (Ingemar).
>
> The archaeologi indicates, that Wothan penetrated slowly from south
> in the 5th century (bracteats etc.).


Hi Troels,

how do bracteats etc. show that this Wodan cult came slowly from the
south? or do you mean from southern Scandinavia to northern
Scandinavia? I recall that some authors have argued that the
development of a warrior Wodan/Odin cult resulted from an increasing
militarisation of Germanic society in the cenutries AD.





Around 520-30 a general shift
in
> weapons to a more uniform style, in offerings and burials all over
> Scandinavia is registered both in Sweden and in Denmark. In Uppsala
3
> big mounds were erected, and 50 years later the Vendel style spread
> over Scandinavia with a dominating center around Uppsala using
style-
> elements also known from Alemans, Merovings, Lombards and
> Anglosaxons - a distaint center with international connections
> consolidating and demonstrating power. This center continued and
> around 1000AD Adam of Bremen described the main temple of Odin in
> Uppsala.
>
> Very brief the sagas tell us about a war between Ases (=Odin and his
> men from Asia) and Vanes (=the old traditions). Odin, who arrived
> from Tanais to Sigtuna near Uppsala, reconciled with the Vanes, and
> some of these got place among the Ases. Odin also became the
ancestor
> to the Scandinavian kings.



I thought that the term Ases/Anses is derived from the word for wooden
beam and simply referes to wooden idols that Germanic people
worshipped. Is  it possible that a re-interpretation of Ases with Asia
was only made much later when the original meaning was long lost.




> My explanation is that a migration people arrived with their typical
> warrior and ancestor cult around 500-30. Although relatively few
they
> subdued the local Ingviones around Uppsala,



I thought that Plinius (or another ancient author) said that the
tribes of Scandinavia belonged to the Hilleviones as opposed to the
Ingviones  (North Sea tribes) Istviones and Irminones in the Germania
magna.





 but accepted some of
> their fertility gods (Ing/Frej and Njord) in order to consolidate
> their power without spoiling the old farming society (like Theodoric
> in Italy 20 years earlier). From there they made most of their small
> neighbour kingdoms "subject and tributary to themselves" (Procopius
> about the Heruls in Pannonia 30 years earlier). Most of the gold
> disappeared except around the religious center which was
consolidated
> 50 years later, but soon they had to split up in several centres as
> they were not able to cover all Scandinavia - having still a
> religious connection.
>
> If the leader of the Ases did not play such a role already at his
> arrival, he got after his death a Wothan-like shape, and his name
> became the Scandinavian version, Odin (According to Wolfram the name
> does not occur before the 6th century). Probably they already
> worshipped Wothan or Gaut, and took advantage of both gods being
> known in some areas of Scandinavia already.


Maybe I mis-understood you, but are you saying that Odin and Wodan are
different gods? I thought Odin is a name that is derived from Wodan or
the Scandinavian version of the name Wodan.



>
> How could the old population believe that story? Probably they
> didn't! They believed in their old Vanes and the weapons of the Ases
-
>  and the supporters got rich too. Odin was primarily accepted as the
> god of kings, earls and warriors - his decendents. Looking at
> archaeology he never got the position we should expect, and even 500
> years later Thor had according to Adam the position in the middle
> between Odin and Frej in his temple in Uppsala. Odin is in the sagas
> described with a dominating position, because he later became the
god
> of the Viking warriors, but looking closer into the poems and sagas
> the Norse mythology was an ever changing mess - a compromise which
> should not be expected if it was a society expanding by its own
power.
>
> This is one way to explain the Norse mythology, but it is of course
> not the only solution. Is this in accordance with the principles we
> discussed below? Do other listmembers have any objections against it
> as a possibility?
>
> The reason to bring this at Gothic list is, that the names Ases and
> Tanais point at an Eastgermanic people worshipping as late as 500AD
> Gaut/Wothan-ancestors. This could be the royal Herulian family -
> according to Procopius a Gothic tribe. But please keep this out of
> the argumentation at this stage, as I did not use it.



Again, I belief that the name Ases simply means wooden beam or wooden
idol, (see Wolfram's  Rom und die Germanen). Tanais is apparently the
river that separated Europe from Asia in medieval thinking. I suspect
that medieval authors could have re-interpreted the name Ases as Asia,
as the meaning for wooden idol was lost.

One problem that I see with the Heruls as transmitter of a Wodan/Odin
cult to Scandinavia is that by 500AD I would have thought that the
Heruls had adopted either a form of Christianity or some pagan Roman
cults given that they were often employed as mercenaries in the Roman
army. The Germanic people which came in direct contact with Rome
adopted Christianity, with the Eastern tribes tending to adopt
Christianity even earlier and more thoroughly than the western tribes.
It has been argued that the Langobards adopted Arian Christianity when
they were subject to the Heruls in Pannonia, possibly through the
contact with the Heruls.


cheers,
Dirk





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