[gothic-l] Re: Odin / Religions (Was: Illerup)

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Hi again Troels,

I found some interesting information on Wodan/Odin on the following 
web-site:

http://www194.pair.com/woden/wodan.html

"The rendering of dies Mercurii by Wôdenesdæg, which we encounter from 
the third century onward, makes it certain that the Mercurius found in 
Tacitus and other Latin authors is to be dentified with Wodan."


"The express testimony of Tacitus, Paulus Diaconus, and others, as 
well as Odhin's place at the head of the Norse pantheon, were formerly 
regarded as sufficient to establish the position of Wodan as the chief 
god of all Teutons. This opinion has now gradually been abandoned by 
the majority of scholars. Müllenhoff, Weinhold, Mogk, and many others 
hold that Wodan was  originally a god of the Istvæones, and that his 
worship was disseminated by the Rhine-Franconians, supplanting that of 
the old sky god Tiu."


cheers
Dirk













--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., trbrandt at p... wrote:
> > Hi Dirk
> > 
> > In my opinion the religions worshipping fertility and the Sun 
(known 
> > from the pictures of the Bronce Ages) in Scandinavia continued as 
> > fertility cults (Ingviones/Nerthus) and later maybe even in a 
> > creator/warrior cult (Gauts) in some turbulent areas (Ingemar).
> > 
> > The archaeologi indicates, that Wothan penetrated slowly from 
south 
> > in the 5th century (bracteats etc.). 
> 
> 
> Hi Troels,
> 
> how do bracteats etc. show that this Wodan cult came slowly from the 
> south? or do you mean from southern Scandinavia to northern 
> Scandinavia? I recall that some authors have argued that the 
> development of a warrior Wodan/Odin cult resulted from an increasing 
> militarisation of Germanic society in the cenutries AD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Around 520-30 a general shift 
> in 
> > weapons to a more uniform style, in offerings and burials all over 
> > Scandinavia is registered both in Sweden and in Denmark. In 
Uppsala 
> 3 
> > big mounds were erected, and 50 years later the Vendel style 
spread 
> > over Scandinavia with a dominating center around Uppsala using 
> style-
> > elements also known from Alemans, Merovings, Lombards and 
> > Anglosaxons - a distaint center with international connections 
> > consolidating and demonstrating power. This center continued and 
> > around 1000AD Adam of Bremen described the main temple of Odin in 
> > Uppsala.
> > 
> > Very brief the sagas tell us about a war between Ases (=Odin and 
his 
> > men from Asia) and Vanes (=the old traditions). Odin, who arrived 
> > from Tanais to Sigtuna near Uppsala, reconciled with the Vanes, 
and 
> > some of these got place among the Ases. Odin also became the 
> ancestor 
> > to the Scandinavian kings. 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that the term Ases/Anses is derived from the word for 
wooden 
> beam and simply referes to wooden idols that Germanic people 
> worshipped. Is  it possible that a re-interpretation of Ases with 
Asia 
> was only made much later when the original meaning was long lost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > My explanation is that a migration people arrived with their 
typical 
> > warrior and ancestor cult around 500-30. Although relatively few 
> they 
> > subdued the local Ingviones around Uppsala,
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that Plinius (or another ancient author) said that the 
> tribes of Scandinavia belonged to the Hilleviones as opposed to the 
> Ingviones  (North Sea tribes) Istviones and Irminones in the 
Germania 
> magna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  but accepted some of 
> > their fertility gods (Ing/Frej and Njord) in order to consolidate 
> > their power without spoiling the old farming society (like 
Theodoric 
> > in Italy 20 years earlier). From there they made most of their 
small 
> > neighbour kingdoms "subject and tributary to themselves" 
(Procopius 
> > about the Heruls in Pannonia 30 years earlier). Most of the gold 
> > disappeared except around the religious center which was 
> consolidated 
> > 50 years later, but soon they had to split up in several centres 
as 
> > they were not able to cover all Scandinavia - having still a 
> > religious connection.
> > 
> > If the leader of the Ases did not play such a role already at his 
> > arrival, he got after his death a Wothan-like shape, and his name 
> > became the Scandinavian version, Odin (According to Wolfram the 
name 
> > does not occur before the 6th century). Probably they already 
> > worshipped Wothan or Gaut, and took advantage of both gods being 
> > known in some areas of Scandinavia already. 
> 
> 
> Maybe I mis-understood you, but are you saying that Odin and Wodan 
are 
> different gods? I thought Odin is a name that is derived from Wodan 
or 
> the Scandinavian version of the name Wodan.
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > How could the old population believe that story? Probably they 
> > didn't! They believed in their old Vanes and the weapons of the 
Ases 
> -
> >  and the supporters got rich too. Odin was primarily accepted as 
the 
> > god of kings, earls and warriors - his decendents. Looking at 
> > archaeology he never got the position we should expect, and even 
500 
> > years later Thor had according to Adam the position in the middle 
> > between Odin and Frej in his temple in Uppsala. Odin is in the 
sagas 
> > described with a dominating position, because he later became the 
> god 
> > of the Viking warriors, but looking closer into the poems and 
sagas 
> > the Norse mythology was an ever changing mess - a compromise which 
> > should not be expected if it was a society expanding by its own 
> power.
> > 
> > This is one way to explain the Norse mythology, but it is of 
course 
> > not the only solution. Is this in accordance with the principles 
we 
> > discussed below? Do other listmembers have any objections against 
it 
> > as a possibility?
> > 
> > The reason to bring this at Gothic list is, that the names Ases 
and 
> > Tanais point at an Eastgermanic people worshipping as late as 
500AD 
> > Gaut/Wothan-ancestors. This could be the royal Herulian family - 
> > according to Procopius a Gothic tribe. But please keep this out of 
> > the argumentation at this stage, as I did not use it.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I belief that the name Ases simply means wooden beam or 
wooden 
> idol, (see Wolfram's  Rom und die Germanen). Tanais is apparently 
the 
> river that separated Europe from Asia in medieval thinking. I 
suspect 
> that medieval authors could have re-interpreted the name Ases as 
Asia, 
> as the meaning for wooden idol was lost. 
> 
> One problem that I see with the Heruls as transmitter of a 
Wodan/Odin 
> cult to Scandinavia is that by 500AD I would have thought that the 
> Heruls had adopted either a form of Christianity or some pagan Roman 
> cults given that they were often employed as mercenaries in the 
Roman 
> army. The Germanic people which came in direct contact with Rome 
> adopted Christianity, with the Eastern tribes tending to adopt 
> Christianity even earlier and more thoroughly than the western 
tribes. 
> It has been argued that the Langobards adopted Arian Christianity 
when 
> they were subject to the Heruls in Pannonia, possibly through the 
> contact with the Heruls. 
> 
> 
> cheers,
> Dirk


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