Ptolemy describes the fjords? [gothic-l]

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Dirk, the Juniper doesn't have leaves. It has needles.

I think your "here is a translation" is a bit too easy,
after I gave you the original text with manuscript variants.
The thing to do would of course be to go to a really good Latin dictionary.

Here are the manuscript variants once again:

(from the Getica §16 : cetri, citri, caedri, cedri, coedri.)

I feel pretty confident that this word is the same as
we use when we say an orange is a "citrus" fruit.
Auf deutsch heißt es Zitrone.

But that is not the right answer here. Beacuse in Latin
"citri" was ALSO the name of the african thuja tree.
Please look in Brockhaus under "Lebensbaum" and you will
find a description. There is the orientalis as well as
the occidentalis.

Andreas Nordin simply translates by "med buktande sidor
liksom citronträdets  blad". But clearly he has chosen
the easiest reading, where the more difficult reading
is clearly to be preferred. (i.e. the lemon leaf)

Namely: there is no POINT in referring to a lemon leaf,
because it has no characteristic, no personality.
It looks like any other leaf. But the lectio difficilior
gives us a leaf of very characteristic shape, that is
a rarity among leaves.

Also this tree (I think sometimes called cedar/cypress?)
was an important product in antiquity. It was used
for building because the wood is very light.
(and also fragrant)

The translation you presented simply can't be right
because English  Juniper was a "Juniperus" in Latin
= Wachholder auf Deutsch. (es hat keine Blätter
nur Nadeln)

I do in fact have an English-Latin dictionary
and it says Juniper (eng.)= iuniperus (lat.)
But the latin-English part says:
citrus -i m.
1) a kind of african cypress with an aromatic timber
used in making furniture: Luc. Plin.
2) the citron-tree : Plin.

So the translator you used (from california?) clearly
made an error there.

Regards
Keth


>--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
>> Hej Tore and Dirk,
>> >>I know that is not your main point, but just to add: Jordanes
>actually
>> >>wrote that the Goths have migrated from the Island of Scandza some
>> >>1000 years or so before our era!!
>> >
>> >Dirk,
>> >You are quite right that Jordanes actually wrote that the Goths
>have
>> >migrated from the Island of Scandza that looks like a Juniper
>leave, the
>> >shape of Gotland.
>>
>>
>>
>> This remark about a "juniper leaf" made me pause a bit.
>> For, as you know, the Juniper has no leaves, but needles.
>> It is therefore difficult to visualize the shape.
>> Looking at the Getica text, I do however find that
>> it says (§ 16): "~De hac etenim in secundo sui operis libro
>> Claudio Ptolomeus, orbis terrae discriptor egregius,
>> meminit dicens: est in Oceani arctoi salo posita insula
>> magna, nomine Scandza, in modum folii cetri, lateribus pandis,
>> per longum ducta concludens se."
>> I think the plant name would here be contained in the
>> phrase "in modum folii cetri".
>> Here the spelling is odd, but it could be the "citrus"
>> that is referred to here. The dictionary then says
>> that this is  1) the lemon tree 2) Thuia orientalis =
>> an african thuja tree. Could that be the same tree
>> that is in many gardens?  In that case the mentioning of
>> this tree, an evergreen with a very scented wood,
>> could refere to its deeply cut leaves, and is hence a
>> reference to the deep fjords of West Norway. That is
>> then the most likely explanation of this passage.
>> In particular because he says the "island" is very
>> large and long stretched. (insula magna & lateribus pandis).
>> It simply could not refer to a minor island like Gotland.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Keth
>>
>> Msanuscript variants: cetri, citri, caedri, cedri, coedri.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Keth,
>
>here is a translation of this part of the Getica, which also has
>'Juniper leaf' as Tore indicated:
>
>http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#united
>
>(16) Let us now return to the site of the island of Scandza, which we
>left above. Claudius Ptolemaeus, an excellent
>describer of the world, has made mention of it in the second book of
>his work, saying: "There is a great island situated in the
>surge of the northern Ocean, Scandza by name, in the shape of a
>juniper leaf with bulging sides that taper down to a point at
>a long end." Pomponius Mela also makes mention of it as situated in
>the Codan Gulf of the sea, with Ocean lapping its
>shores. (17) This island lies in front of the river Vistula, which
>rises in the Sarmatian mountains and flows through its triple
>mouth into the northern Ocean in sight of Scandza, separating Germany
>and Scythia. The island has in its eastern part a vast
>lake in the bosom of the earth, whence the Vagus river springs from
>the bowels of the earth and flows surging into the Ocean.
>And on the west it is surrounded by an immense sea. On the north it is
>bounded by the same vast unnavigable Ocean, from
>which by means of a sort of projecting arm of land a bay is cut off
>and forms the German Sea. (18) Here also there are said
>to be many small islands scattered round about. If wolves cross over
>to these islands when the sea is frozen by reason of the
>great cold, they are said to lose their sight. Thus the land is not
>only inhospitable to men but cruel even to wild beasts."
>
>cheers,
>
>Dirk
>
>
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