Comparing languages. Examples [gothic-l]

Tue Jul 24 12:54:05 UTC 2001

Hi Cory!
Thank you for your reply!
My objection is methodological:   :)
You compare 3 samples from 3 related languges at vastly
different points in time. Since modern German is direct descendant
of Old High German, but separated by a thousand years, it does not
belong in the comparison. Gothic from ca.350 AD  with Old High German
from ca. 950, is also a wide separation.

In my examples I did something entirely different.
I compared Gutnish (by an example sentence) from ca. 1350
with Icelandic, also from ca. 1350.

Then as a control I also compared modern German with modern Dutch,
because those are living languages today and many people who
have visited both countries are intrigued by the question how
close they are. Well, in my opinion Dutch and German are not
*very close. Because a speaker of one of the two languages does not
automatically understand the other language. It takes a while to become
accustomed. That is different between f.ex. Norwegian and Danish
which are virtually the same language. Or even Swedish.
Modern Icelandic is, however, considerably further away - because the
languages have drifted apart over the last 700 years. And it is the
Scandinavian languages that have done most of the drifting.
But if you have chance to ask an Icelander how close he feels
that Old Gutnic is to Icelandic, then that would, I think, be the best test
that one could devise. Because only a very seasoned user of one
of the two languages that are being compared, can directly "feel"
how far the languages are apart. And that is, in my opinion,
that which counts.

Best regards
Keth

>(Oops!  Sorry, I forgot some of the documentation.)
>
>On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:15:05 -0400 Cory B Strohmier
><corystrohmier at juno.com> writes:
>> Hi Keth,
>>       "The great 'aha' experience?"  Are you slipping some Gothic 
>> in on us here?
>>       The following quote from the book "A History of the German 
>> Language" by John  T. Waterman (University of Washington Press) may 
>> help put the matter in a clearer context:  "The reason for our 
>> difficulty, of course, is that the conventional charting of the West 
>> Germanic family tree depends for its validity upon findings which 
>> presumably prove that Old High German and Old English, for example, 
>> have many more features in common than, say, Old High German and 
>> Gothic.  But this is by no means so certain; in fact, a careful 
>> tally reveals that the "West Germanic" languages --- though 
>> admittedly having much in common --- may also in several important 
>> features be paired separately with either the North or the East 
>> Germanic languages, or both..."  (page 45).
>>       Below are three texts:  Old Bavarian, Gothic, and German.  
>> They may help to show the closeness of the three languages. 
>> Cory
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Old Bavarian text:
>(This is the original text from "A History of the German Language" 
>by John T. Waterman, page 81.)
>> Fater unser, du pist in himilum, kawihit si namo din,
>> piqhueme richi din, wesa din willo, sama so in himile est, sama in 
>> erdu.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Gothic:  (This is my translation.)
>> Fadar unsar, thu is in himinam, gaweihaith sijai namo thein,
>> biqimai reik thana, wesi thana wilja, sama swa in himina ist, sama 
>> ana airthai.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> German:  (This is my translation.)
>> Vater unser, du bist im Himmel, geweiht sei dein Name,
>> dein Reich komme, dein Wille waere, wie es ist im Himmel so auf 
>> Erden.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:39:21 +0200 keth at online.no writes:
>> > Hi Cory!
>> > Thank you for your response. But from what you write (below) it
>> > appears as if you didn't have the great "aha" experience.
>> > I suppose I made the mistake of explaining too much. Bairisch is
>> > of course irrelevant. Below I have Dutch-German instead as 
>> example.
>> > The point is that people just LOOK at the texts !!!    :)
>> > 
>> > You wrote:
>> > >Hi Keth, 
>> > >Thank you for clearing that up.  I'm sure I'll ponder what you 
>> > wrote for
>> > >some time to come.
>> > >Have a nice weekend,
>> > >Cory
>> > 
>> > I repeat the two examples again. The point is just to compare. 
>> Keth.
>> > 
>> > Example 1.
>> > Dutch text (Nederlands):
>> > Vandaag heb ik de gehele dag getypt; toch ben ik niet vermoeid
>> > omdat ik ook een wandeling gedaan heb.  (sample text of 18 words)
>> > 
>> > German translation of Dutch text:
>> > Heute habe ich den ganzen Tag getippt; doch bin ich nicht müde
>> > weil ich auch eine Wanderung getan habe.
>> > 
>> > Example 2.
>> > Old Gutnish text:
>> > Gutland hitti fyrsti maðr þann sum þjelvar hít. þá var
>> > Gutland sá elvist at þet dagum sank ok nátum var uppi.
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > Icelandic translation of Old Gutnish text:
>> > Gotland hitti fyrstr maðr sá sem þjalfarr hét. þá var 
>> > Gotland sá ?elvist at þat dOgum sOkk ok nóttum var uppi.
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
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>> > 
>
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