[gothic-l] Re: [Germanic-L] Early medieval topoi

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Hi Dirk!
>I cross post this reply of mine about early medieval topoi from the 
>Gothic list, as it also concerns other Germanic tribes as well: 
I only saw this post to [germanic-l]. Can I answer to the 
Gotic list too?

>"
Alii vero 
>affirmant eaos de Scanza insula, quae vagina gentium est, exordium 
>habuisse, de qua Gothi et caeterae nations Theotiscae exierunt
".

These were the Franks you say, who came from Scanza?
According to the Icelandic Volsungasaga, the ancestor of the
Volsungs also came from Scandinavia, but he conquered a kingdom
down in Húnaland. I can look up the legend. But it speaks of
a slave "Bredi" being hidden in a glacier. (fonn)
But I see that you wish to argue that legends aren't worth anything.
However, legends were the way history was transmitted before writing came.
For example in Northern legend, ca. 1200, it is still correctly
remembered that Ermanarik was a king in the southern lands.
And that is from the 4th century. So that is 800 years !

 

>Jordanes also alludes to a biblical origin of the Goths, which also 

Here I think you are being inconsistent.
You refer to Scanza, Troy and "the Bible".
So the Goths either came out of Scandinavia, or out of Troy, or out of the Bible???
(it sound like you are describing a certain drawing by Dutch graphic artist "Escher")


Of course the stories told in the Bible may also refer to real
lands, peoples and events, though they may in some cases have
become unrecognizable, or mixed with legend.

Gog and Magog are "in" the Bible. But the Bible only describes them,
and probably places them in some distant country. Maybe Russia??
 

>adopted a life on its own in later works. Jordanes (Getica IV, 29)  
>shows himself surprised that Flavius Josephus, who called the Magog 
>Scythians does not also identify them as Goths since Scythians are 

Well, since the Goths lived in the same areas as the Scyths lived earlier,
why cannot some Goths actually have been "Scyths"?

Those are very vague designations any way, and maybe the Scyths
even went far up North and traded with the Gotlanders at some time?

>Goths. Unrelatedly, Ambrosius of Milan (De fide II 16, 137f) also made 
>the identification of Goths and Magog when writing that "Gog iste 
>Gothus est". Ambrosius was the basis for Isidor of Seville who also 
>identified the Goths with Magog on several occasions (Isisor Hist. 
>Gothorum 66).

Well, that is a clever one! "Gog" as "Goths".
The reference seems to be Ezekhiel 38 and 39. Also in Revelation.
A quick reading reveals an invasion apparently coming from the 
North. So maybe these were the names the Jews used for peoples
living North of the Middle Eastern lands. Then it fits in with
the scythians perhaps? But Gog was only the name of a king.
His land was called "Magog".


>This underscores, that tribal histories are not historical accounts
> in a modern sense. The Scandza topos is not more credible as the 
>Troy or biblical topos on the basis of these legends. Of course these 
>histories do contain fragments of tribal legends that report 
>historical events. However, for the Langobards, for example, several> 
>authors have shown that the first `true' folk memories start only as 
>late as the arrival in Rugiland. 

I do not think the Troy "topos" contradicts the Scandza topos.
And the Bible "topos" of course doesn't mean that these peoples
came "out of" the Bible [belt?]  (=Middle East?), it only means that
they may also have been described in the Bible, because the
people living in the Middle East presumably also knew some things
about the people who lived North of the mountains (i.e. the Kaukasus)

They may have had very bad maps in those days. And maybe they didn't
think of Troy and Scanza as being very far apart. The same thing
is supposed to have happened with Denmark and Dacia, which they 
thought referred to the same land, due to a very distorted view of
geography. (see the work of Lars Hemmingsen, who wrote about this
topic of his, a few years ago on Oldnorsenet)

 
>But even for those tribal legends that were interwoven with 
>classical sources there must have been certain models and analogies. 
>Thus, we encounter the migration with three ships in the Gothic 
>legends and in the Saxon legends, while the Langobards never mention 
>any crossing of the sea.

Does Goffart say that ??
Doesn't the Historia Langobardorum say the Langobards used
to live on an island? How can a whole nation come from an island
without crossing water? In fact, the "Historia" repeats this many many times.



>The names of the leaders are often modelled 
>after animals. The Gothic name Berig may relate to Gothic baira the 
>bear, while the Saxons arrived in Britain under Hengist and Horsa (the 
>stallion and the horse) and one of the Langobardic leaders is Ybor, 
>the boar.

But Scandinavian names often _are_ animal names !
(but if Ybor means "Eber", were these animals in Sweden.
I've never seen them in Norway btw. But they may have been here before.
Maybe in the Bronze Age?)

>
>All in all, I think that this makes it clear that the Scandza topos, 
>just like the other topoi of Germanic tribal histories cannot simply 
>be regarded as true and genuine memories. Especially the fact that 
>several topoi were used for one and the same tribe underlines that 
>none of them can simply be taken as the one and true legend. This 
>would be arbitrary. For a medieval audience the Troy topos was just 
>as real or unreal as the biblical and Scandza topos. Only that the 
>Scandza topos suvived longer, in fact until the present day. Most 
>likely none of the topoi represented real tribal true memory, or as 
>Goffart put it "As for Scandza itself, the idea that an authentic 
>Gothic tradition should have referred to an island of that name is 
>no more plausible than that hoary legends among native peoples of 
>North America should refer tothe State of Alaska or the Yukon 
>Territory, let alone the Hudson's Bay". (p89)

Well, if they actually had trade relations with those countries
(Amber trade) then it would have referred to a real place (=where
the amber came from), though they may have mixed it up a bit.
Scythia does sound remarkably similar to Scandia, just as
Dacia sound similar to Dania.  (in both cases it is only
the letter "n")

>But even for those tribal legends that were interwoven with 
>classical sources there must have been certain models and analogies. 
>Thus, we encounter the migration with three ships in the Gothic 
>legends and in the Saxon legends, while the Langobards never mention
>any crossing of the sea. The names of the leaders are often modelled 
>after animals. The Gothic name Berig may relate to Gothic baira the 
>bear, while the Saxons arrived in Britain under Hengist and Horsa (the 
>stallion and the horse) and one of the Langobardic leaders is Ybor, 
>the boar.

I still do not understand the point you are making, by saying that
those who lead their nation across water to a new land, have animal names?

Protogermanic "bear" is supposed to be *bernu
Berig has no "n", hence I do not believe it refers to a bear.
To me it sounds more like a variant on "Boiorik".
(shrug)

Anyway, thank you for your post!
In spite of my questions, I thought it was interesting reading.

Best regards
Keth



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Small business owners...
Tell us what you think!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/