[gothic-l] Re: [Germanic-L] Early medieval topoi

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

> But I see that you wish to argue that legends aren't worth anything.
> However, legends were the way history was transmitted before writing
came.
> For example in Northern legend, ca. 1200, it is still correctly
> remembered that Ermanarik was a king in the southern lands.
> And that is from the 4th century. So that is 800 years !
>


Hi again Keth,

I am not saying that legends are worth nothing. I am saying that we
have to understand the evolution and origin of certain topoi that were
imbedded in the legends in order to extract the truth.






> >Jordanes also alludes to a biblical origin of the Goths, which also
>
> Here I think you are being inconsistent.
> You refer to Scanza, Troy and "the Bible".
> So the Goths either came out of Scandinavia, or out of Troy, or out
of the Bible???


It is not me who is inconsistent here, but the ancient historians who
applied different origin topoi that were 'in the air' to the same
people. By analysing the topoi used by Jordanes/Cassiodorus we can
clarify their intentions. For one thing they had to supply the Scandza
topos that any learned Roman senator was expecting for the origin of
'barbarians' from the north. The learned Roman would have expected to
read about overpopulation, the lengths of days and the harsh climate
that earlier geographers had already described. Next, in order to
allow for a peaceful acceptance of Gothic rule, Cassiodorus must have
been keen to set the Goths on equal footing with the Romans by giving
them a Troyan-heritage, which was most admired by Romans. The
identification with Magog is only very vague in Jordanes, but moves to
the foreground for other authors and had a similar aim I suppose.
Also, around was likely a Britannia topos at the time, which Jordanes
is also aluding to.



(snip)
>
> I do not think the Troy "topos" contradicts the Scandza topos.
> And the Bible "topos" of course doesn't mean that these peoples
> came "out of" the Bible [belt?]  (=Middle East?), it only means that
> they may also have been described in the Bible, because the
> people living in the Middle East presumably also knew some things
> about the people who lived North of the mountains (i.e. the
Kaukasus)

But I think they do contradict each other. The Saxons either came from
 Macedonia, or from Scandinavia or from Britannia and the Goths were
either identical with Magog or they were the decendents of the Getians
and Troyans or they came from Scandza. The interesting thing is that
the contradictions were acceptable at the time.


>
> They may have had very bad maps in those days. And maybe they didn't
> think of Troy and Scanza as being very far apart.


Possible, but when refereing to Troy the people of that time had the
Troyan wars and Troyan heros in mind. That was what the topos was
aiming at, not some mistaken geographical perception.


The same thing
> is supposed to have happened with Denmark and Dacia, which they
> thought referred to the same land, due to a very distorted view of
> geography. (see the work of Lars Hemmingsen, who wrote about this
> topic of his, a few years ago on Oldnorsenet)
>
>
> >But even for those tribal legends that were interwoven with
> >classical sources there must have been certain models and
analogies.
> >Thus, we encounter the migration with three ships in the Gothic
> >legends and in the Saxon legends, while the Langobards never
mention
> >any crossing of the sea.
>
> Does Goffart say that ??
> Doesn't the Historia Langobardorum say the Langobards used
> to live on an island? How can a whole nation come from an island
> without crossing water? In fact, the "Historia" repeats this many
many times.

Yes, I meant the Langobardic histories don't record the actual
primodial deed of crossing a large body of water that is important in
other legends.




>
>
> >The names of the leaders are often modelled
> >after animals. The Gothic name Berig may relate to Gothic baira the
> >bear, while the Saxons arrived in Britain under Hengist and Horsa
(the
> >stallion and the horse) and one of the Langobardic leaders is Ybor,
> >the boar.
>
> But Scandinavian names often _are_ animal names !
> (but if Ybor means "Eber", were these animals in Sweden.
> I've never seen them in Norway btw. But they may have been here
before.
> Maybe in the Bronze Age?)
>
> >
> >All in all, I think that this makes it clear that the Scandza
topos,
> >just like the other topoi of Germanic tribal histories cannot
simply
> >be regarded as true and genuine memories. Especially the fact that
> >several topoi were used for one and the same tribe underlines that
> >none of them can simply be taken as the one and true legend. This
> >would be arbitrary. For a medieval audience the Troy topos was just
> >as real or unreal as the biblical and Scandza topos. Only that the
> >Scandza topos suvived longer, in fact until the present day. Most
> >likely none of the topoi represented real tribal true memory, or as
> >Goffart put it "As for Scandza itself, the idea that an authentic
> >Gothic tradition should have referred to an island of that name is
> >no more plausible than that hoary legends among native peoples of
> >North America should refer tothe State of Alaska or the Yukon
> >Territory, let alone the Hudson's Bay". (p89)
>
> Well, if they actually had trade relations with those countries
> (Amber trade) then it would have referred to a real place (=where
> the amber came from), though they may have mixed it up a bit.
> Scythia does sound remarkably similar to Scandia, just as
> Dacia sound similar to Dania.  (in both cases it is only
> the letter "n")
>
> >But even for those tribal legends that were interwoven with
> >classical sources there must have been certain models and
analogies.
> >Thus, we encounter the migration with three ships in the Gothic
> >legends and in the Saxon legends, while the Langobards never
mention
> >any crossing of the sea. The names of the leaders are often
modelled
> >after animals. The Gothic name Berig may relate to Gothic baira the
> >bear, while the Saxons arrived in Britain under Hengist and Horsa
(the
> >stallion and the horse) and one of the Langobardic leaders is Ybor,
> >the boar.
>
> I still do not understand the point you are making, by saying that
> those who lead their nation across water to a new land, have animal
names?

No, I meant that these genuine Germanic legends had similar and
interchangeable components, which should make as weary about
interpreting too much into the report that, for instance, that the
Goths but also the Saxons arrived in 3 ships etc.


cheers
Dirk


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