[gothic-l] Re: [Germanic-L] Early medieval topoi

[Francisc Czobor]

Hails allaim!

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hi Dirk!
> >I cross post this reply of mine about early medieval topoi from the 
> >Gothic list, as it also concerns other Germanic tribes as well: 
> I only saw this post to [germanic-l]. Can I answer to the 
> Gotic list too?
> 
> >"
Alii vero 
> >affirmant eaos de Scanza insula, quae vagina gentium est, exordium 
> >habuisse, de qua Gothi et caeterae nations Theotiscae exierunt
".
> These were the Franks you say, who came from Scanza?

Iordanes (Getica IV) says: "Ex hac igitur Scandza insula quasi 
officina gentium aut certe velut vagina nationum cum rege suo nomine 
Berig Gothi quondam memorantur egressi..."

It seems to me that the Franks ispired themselves from the Getica. 
Even the name Scan(d)za they rather took from the Getica than from 
their own folklore.

> >adopted a life on its own in later works. Jordanes (Getica IV, 29) 
> >shows himself surprised that Flavius Josephus, who called the Magog 
> >Scythians does not also identify them as Goths since Scythians are 
> 
> Well, since the Goths lived in the same areas as the Scyths lived 
earlier,
> why cannot some Goths actually have been "Scyths"?
> 
> Those are very vague designations any way, and maybe the Scyths
> even went far up North and traded with the Gotlanders at some time?
> ...

The Greeks designated as "Scythian" every barbarian coming from 
North(-East), even centuries after the disappearance of the proper 
Scythians. The Goths were "Scythians", the Huns were "Scythians" etc. 
In Wolfram's "Die Germanen" I read that some Greek author (I don't 
remember who, and I don't have the book at hand now) wrote about the 
"Iuthungic Scythians" (and the Iuthungi were Germanic!).
Probably the term "Scythia" became at a moment a generic denomination 
with the sense of "northern barbarian" (like "Hyperborean" in earlier 
times).
In the "Gesta Hungarum" of Anonymus (the oldest preserved chronicle of 
the Hungarians, 12th century) the Huns and the Hungarians are 
presented as "Scythians", their original homeland being "Scythia".

> >Goths. Unrelatedly, Ambrosius of Milan (De fide II 16, 137f) also 
made 
> >the identification of Goths and Magog when writing that "Gog iste 
> >Gothus est". Ambrosius was the basis for Isidor of Seville who also 
> >identified the Goths with Magog on several occasions (Isisor Hist. 
> >Gothorum 66).
> 
> Well, that is a clever one! "Gog" as "Goths".

In the above mentioned "Gesta Hungarum", the native name of the 
Hungarians: "moger" (in the modern language: "magyar") is interpreted 
as being derived from "Magog".

It seems to me that topoi like Scythia, Magog, Scan(d)za etc. were 
very in fashion in the early Middle Ages, and one should consider them 
very carefully.

Francisc


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