[gothic-l] Re: Snorri and skaldskaparmal

[malmqvist52 at YAHOO.SE]

Hi Keth
--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hej Anders,
> No, I am serious. But maybe it is because we here in West
> Norway see a much bigger gap of Ocean between ourselves
> and "the Continent" than you do with the many narrow sounds
> that connect everything. We are also much closer to England.
> But there is more Ocean separating Norway from the Continent
> than England.
> 
> I also mean the vikings and Ottar must have known "Bothnia"
> was closed. Otherwise they could have had a much shorter route
> to the Bjarmi and the White Sea.

I still have to read on what reasons Ottar would have had for lying 
about it then,; the same goes for Snorri

> >I find it hard to really believe this. Do the norweigans really
> >seriously (not just because of EU-discussion) consider themselves
> >not  living in Europe?
> 
> Most Norwegians have learned in school that we live in "Europe".
> But it is only after EU came up that people use the term as the name
> of a place you can travel to. Before we always said: "I went to 
France",
> "We visited Germany", etc.. We always mentioned the specific 
countries.
> I think the concept of "Europe" was created by the Americans, 
because
> over there you could always say "I am from Europe", and they'd 
accept
> it as the name of a country. Now we often say" "ta en tur til 
Europa"
> and that does not mean Scandinavia.
> 
> I think Snorri calls it Aenas btw.
> 

I quote from Ynglingasaga:
"...Tanais. Hon vor fordom kollud Tanakvisl eda Vanakvisl; hon kömr 
til siavar inni Svartahaf. I Vanavvislum va [th]a kallat Vanaland eda 
Vanaheimr Su askilr heims[th]ridiungarna heitir fyrir austan Asia en 
fyrir vestan Euro´pa´."

> >In any case we swedes are taught in schools how the map of Europe
> >looks like and I have never felt that I don't live in Europe. I
> >certainly see the British Islands as Europe too. Apparently Snorre
> >also had a fairly good idea of how Europe looked like, as it 
appears
> >of Edda and Ynlingasaga. Snorre himself lived on an Island and in 
the
> >referred chapter he is specifially taktin about mainland as opposed
> >to islands He also spent time with the lawman in Västergötland.
> >Should not he know what he was talking about?
> 
> Yes and no. But there are 3 problems. The first one is if we 
undersatnd
> Snorri the way he intended. The second is what kinds of geographical
> ideas Snorri had. And the third is how well he understood ancient 
history.

Yea I understad the problems. But in this passage Snorre was talking 
more about geography an onomastics than ancent history. At least not 
central european ancient history.

> >Herman Lindqvist has written an exellent chapter about this
> >in "Caramba, so they never say" According to him the feel
> >of "kontinenten" a little bit starts in Lund in Skåne(Scania).( do
> >you agree Bertil?:-)e are a little friendlier and the atmosphere 
is a
> >little bit hotter. Then in Copenhagen "Kontinenten" starts for 
real,
> >but the feel could be more "kontinental"... In Paris it's even
> >more "continental" but something is still missing. Madrid must be 
the
> >ultimate "Kontinent", but isn't something missing still... or
> >something like that( from my memory).
> 
> >I find this statment, in general, to be illogical.
> >Why would a serious historian or a geographer describe a peninsula 
as
> >an island, if he knew better?
> 
> My question is how he could be so sure if he hadn't been there.
> And he cannot have circumnavigated it either, because that
> is impossible !
> 
> 
> >Would Snorre deliberately spread desinfromation?
> 
> All I know is that this is what he wrote, and that it makes
> sense to me:
> 
> « Í þann tíma var kallat allt meginland, þat er hann átti,
> Reiðgotaland, enn eyjar allar Eygotaland ; þat er nú kallat
> Danaveldi ok Svíaveldi. »


> Eygotaland = Danaveldi + Sviaveldi.
> Reidgotaland = the rest of Odin's lands.
> 
> (for a definition of "the rest of Odin's lands" also read 
Ynglingasaga,
> where you will see that it included Saxland.)

In both Ynglingasaga and the prologue of the Edda he sets his sons to 
rule over Saxland. Odin himsef ends up in Sigtuna in the Edda and in 
odense on Fyn. My humble opinion is  that these are the lands  Snorre 
refers to as odins in chapter 65( i e Danaveldi+Sviaveldi in snorres 
times= Eygotaland+Reidgotaland in more ancient times). In the 
prologue of the Edda Odin travels north from Saxland to Reidgotaland 
which he says now is called "Jo'tland" ( which I have an idea is 
possibly to be translated Juteland+Götland since danekings also could 
be found there and because it COULD be pronounced in a similar way) 
where he meets the danekings.

In Swedish the passage in question is:
Han benämdes med ett av Odens namn och det kommer av namnet Gaut, för 
Gautland eller Gotland uppkallades efter Odens namn och Svitjod efter 
namnet Svidur , det är också ett namn för Oden. på den tiden kallades 
fastlandet som han hade för Reidgotaland och alla öar för Ögotaland. 
Det kallas nu Danaväldet och Sveaväldet.

In english:
" He was called by one of the names of Odin and it is derived from 
the name Gaut for Gautland or Gotland was named after Odin's name and 
Svithiod after the name Svidur, it is also aname for Odin. In that 
time the mainland he had was called Reidgotaland and all the 
islands "Islandgotaland" It is now called the Dana wealth and the 
Svea wealth.
 
I have seen kinds of ambiuous aming before at Snorri E.g when he 
talks about Troja in sigtuna although It's understood that Odin never 
was in troja himself. 
Here, however Snorre mentions only one land really but with several 
names: Odin's land, Gautland, Got(a)land, (Reid+ Ö)Gotaland , wich 
now is called the Danawealth and the Sveawealth

I don't see any talk of any acessorie lands of Odin, nor any hint of 
what they could be called "today" ( in  Snorris times).
  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >Forgive me for being ignorant, but I really don't know what goths 
you
> >mean.
> 
> Okay - here is a brief recapitulation :
> 
> We were spaking about the Rök stone.
> On the Rök stone a king Theodoric is mentioned,
> as well as something about 9 generations.
> Also a people called "Reidgoths" is mentioned on the Rök stone.

I don't think the Rök stone is regarded as conclusively deciphered.

At least that is my opinion that it's not aboy any Theodoric.

> Now take a jump to Snorri:
> who explains where the country Reiðgotaland is situated.
> 
> >Perhaps I'm on the wrong list but I don't believe that the
> >Edda's "goths" are the same as the ostrogoths and visigoths in
> >historical central Europe.
> 
> I thought it was common knowledge that many of the Edda's heroic
> lays ultimately derive from Gothic/Burgundian/Frankish legend.

I meant that I don't see any actual goths in Snorris stories, only 
names on places and some individuals that well could be derived from 
the god Gaut/Gad/God/Gud/Got/Goth/Gut/Göt/Gott.  

Best regards
Anders


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