[gothic-l] Re: Snorri and skaldskaparmal

[Tore Gannholm]

Hi,
It seems that we are translating from translations.
We can never use a Swedish translations and argue about what Snorri wrote.
We need his original and have to interpret what he means.

All translations are only what other people guessed he meant.
Tore



>Hi Keth
>--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
>> Hej Anders,
>> No, I am serious. But maybe it is because we here in West
>> Norway see a much bigger gap of Ocean between ourselves
>> and "the Continent" than you do with the many narrow sounds
>> that connect everything. We are also much closer to England.
>> But there is more Ocean separating Norway from the Continent
>> than England.
>>
>> I also mean the vikings and Ottar must have known "Bothnia"
>> was closed. Otherwise they could have had a much shorter route
>> to the Bjarmi and the White Sea.
>
>I still have to read on what reasons Ottar would have had for lying
>about it then,; the same goes for Snorri
>
>> >I find it hard to really believe this. Do the norweigans really
>> >seriously (not just because of EU-discussion) consider themselves
>> >not  living in Europe?
>>
>> Most Norwegians have learned in school that we live in "Europe".
>> But it is only after EU came up that people use the term as the name
>> of a place you can travel to. Before we always said: "I went to
>France",
>> "We visited Germany", etc.. We always mentioned the specific
>countries.
>> I think the concept of "Europe" was created by the Americans,
>because
>> over there you could always say "I am from Europe", and they'd
>accept
>> it as the name of a country. Now we often say" "ta en tur til
>Europa"
>> and that does not mean Scandinavia.
>>
>> I think Snorri calls it Aenas btw.
>>
>
>I quote from Ynglingasaga:
>"...Tanais. Hon vor fordom kollud Tanakvisl eda Vanakvisl; hon kömr
>til siavar inni Svartahaf. I Vanavvislum va [th]a kallat Vanaland eda
>Vanaheimr Su askilr heims[th]ridiungarna heitir fyrir austan Asia en
>fyrir vestan Euro´pa´."
>
>> >In any case we swedes are taught in schools how the map of Europe
>> >looks like and I have never felt that I don't live in Europe. I
>> >certainly see the British Islands as Europe too. Apparently Snorre
>> >also had a fairly good idea of how Europe looked like, as it
>appears
>> >of Edda and Ynlingasaga. Snorre himself lived on an Island and in
>the
>> >referred chapter he is specifially taktin about mainland as opposed
>> >to islands He also spent time with the lawman in Västergötland.
>> >Should not he know what he was talking about?
>>
>> Yes and no. But there are 3 problems. The first one is if we
>undersatnd
>> Snorri the way he intended. The second is what kinds of geographical
>> ideas Snorri had. And the third is how well he understood ancient
>history.
>
>Yea I understad the problems. But in this passage Snorre was talking
>more about geography an onomastics than ancent history. At least not
>central european ancient history.
>
>> >Herman Lindqvist has written an exellent chapter about this
>> >in "Caramba, so they never say" According to him the feel
>> >of "kontinenten" a little bit starts in Lund in Skåne(Scania).( do
>> >you agree Bertil?:-)e are a little friendlier and the atmosphere
>is a
>> >little bit hotter. Then in Copenhagen "Kontinenten" starts for
>real,
>> >but the feel could be more "kontinental"... In Paris it's even
>> >more "continental" but something is still missing. Madrid must be
>the
>> >ultimate "Kontinent", but isn't something missing still... or
>> >something like that( from my memory).
>>
>> >I find this statment, in general, to be illogical.
>> >Why would a serious historian or a geographer describe a peninsula
>as
>> >an island, if he knew better?
>>
>> My question is how he could be so sure if he hadn't been there.
>> And he cannot have circumnavigated it either, because that
>> is impossible !
>>
>>
>> >Would Snorre deliberately spread desinfromation?
>>
>> All I know is that this is what he wrote, and that it makes
>> sense to me:
>>
>> « Í þann tíma var kallat allt meginland, þat er hann átti,
>> Reiðgotaland, enn eyjar allar Eygotaland ; þat er nú kallat
>> Danaveldi ok Svíaveldi. »
>
>
>> Eygotaland = Danaveldi + Sviaveldi.
>> Reidgotaland = the rest of Odin's lands.
>>
>> (for a definition of "the rest of Odin's lands" also read
>Ynglingasaga,
>> where you will see that it included Saxland.)
>
>In both Ynglingasaga and the prologue of the Edda he sets his sons to
>rule over Saxland. Odin himsef ends up in Sigtuna in the Edda and in
>odense on Fyn. My humble opinion is  that these are the lands  Snorre
>refers to as odins in chapter 65( i e Danaveldi+Sviaveldi in snorres
>times= Eygotaland+Reidgotaland in more ancient times). In the
>prologue of the Edda Odin travels north from Saxland to Reidgotaland
>which he says now is called "Jo'tland" ( which I have an idea is
>possibly to be translated Juteland+Götland since danekings also could
>be found there and because it COULD be pronounced in a similar way)
>where he meets the danekings.
>
>In Swedish the passage in question is:
>Han benämdes med ett av Odens namn och det kommer av namnet Gaut, för
>Gautland eller Gotland uppkallades efter Odens namn och Svitjod efter
>namnet Svidur , det är också ett namn för Oden. på den tiden kallades
>fastlandet som han hade för Reidgotaland och alla öar för Ögotaland.
>Det kallas nu Danaväldet och Sveaväldet.
>
>In english:
>" He was called by one of the names of Odin and it is derived from
>the name Gaut for Gautland or Gotland was named after Odin's name and
>Svithiod after the name Svidur, it is also aname for Odin. In that
>time the mainland he had was called Reidgotaland and all the
>islands "Islandgotaland" It is now called the Dana wealth and the
>Svea wealth.
>
>I have seen kinds of ambiuous aming before at Snorri E.g when he
>talks about Troja in sigtuna although It's understood that Odin never
>was in troja himself.
>Here, however Snorre mentions only one land really but with several
>names: Odin's land, Gautland, Got(a)land, (Reid+ Ö)Gotaland , wich
>now is called the Danawealth and the Sveawealth
>
>I don't see any talk of any acessorie lands of Odin, nor any hint of
>what they could be called "today" ( in  Snorris times).
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >Forgive me for being ignorant, but I really don't know what goths
>you
>> >mean.
>>
>> Okay - here is a brief recapitulation :
>>
>> We were spaking about the Rök stone.
>> On the Rök stone a king Theodoric is mentioned,
>> as well as something about 9 generations.
>> Also a people called "Reidgoths" is mentioned on the Rök stone.
>
>I don't think the Rök stone is regarded as conclusively deciphered.
>
>At least that is my opinion that it's not aboy any Theodoric.
>
>> Now take a jump to Snorri:
>> who explains where the country Reiðgotaland is situated.
>>
>> >Perhaps I'm on the wrong list but I don't believe that the
>> >Edda's "goths" are the same as the ostrogoths and visigoths in
>> >historical central Europe.
>>
>> I thought it was common knowledge that many of the Edda's heroic
>> lays ultimately derive from Gothic/Burgundian/Frankish legend.
>
>I meant that I don't see any actual goths in Snorris stories, only
>names on places and some individuals that well could be derived from
>the god Gaut/Gad/God/Gud/Got/Goth/Gut/Göt/Gott.
>
>Best regards
>Anders
>
>
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