[gothic-l] Re: Snorri on Reidgotaland

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Hi Troels, and thank you for your reply.
>> >What does Maringa/Maeringer mean?
My idea was that it could be Sunnmøre/Nordmøre.
Also a place mentioned in Jordanes, I will look later.
The stem also can mean "famous" as in, for example,
the name "Dietmar" or even "Reidmar".


>> Wasn't that the name of a district ?
>> (or maybe "famous man"?)
For example German "Märchen" has to do with this word.
Someone who is widely spoken of is "famed" (Dutch "vermaard")


>Which district? Maehren?
>Or was he a viking? (Mare)
It could of course also be Mähren.
Also Old Norse "mærr" adjective = famous.


>>
>> >What does Hraid/Reid mean?
>
>> I recall two possible meanings that were much discussed in our
>> previous discussion. One was "rede" (nest), the other was "ride"
>> (to ride). If I then look at the etymology as well as the
>> words corresponding to these two basic meanings in the different
>> Germanic languages, I believe I find that only the first meaning
>> (rede/nest) derives from a stem that originally had an initial
>> "h". That means that we can then eliminate all meanings that
>> have something to do with "riding", like in horse-riding, and that
>> is certainly progress.
>> ----
>> I wish to maintain as important hypothesis, that the "Hreidgoths" is
>> what the Scandinavians called the continental Goths - the ones who
>> had followed the Vistula down towards the Black Sea.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Keth
>
>
>I am not able to evaluate your hypotheses from a linguistic point of
>view, but if we follow your conclusions the Hreidgoths (Nest Goths)
>should be the Goths in their continental nest - being then the
>Vistula-region. This makes sense as a counterpart to the Goths of
>Eygotaland (Island Goths) at the Hreidmare islands - being the
>Scandinavian Peninsula, Gotland, Sealand etc. in the sea between
>the "islands" and the nest. Remember that the Scandinavian Peninsula
>as late as 553 by Procopius was called an island. The "Hraidkutum"s
>at the Roek-stone from 800 indicates that these names were so old,
>that we should expect the continental Goths to believe the Goths in
>Scandinavia to live on islands - except for the Jutes if they were
>Goths/Gauts. This might indicate that Gaut had his nest in the
>Vistula-region.

The most "famous Goths", i.e. "mærir Gautar" were the ones who went South.


>It will also make sense if some remaining Hreidgoths migrated from
>the Vistula-region to the "islands" and attacked people there, when
>the Slavs penetrated Poland 400-600. If they migrated to Jutland this
>will explain why Snorre once called Jutland Reidgotaland.

Yes, he says so in Ynglingasaga. Which slightly contradicts
what he says in his Edda. But maybe these were written some years
apart. And he may have had slightly different opinions at different times.
I will look out for it again as I read the rest of the fornaldr sagas.
Because it is mentioned there, and you get the impression that it
is a vast distant land. But I'll have to find that reference.
I'll look in Hervarar saga where the country is mentioned
as a legendary country. I think it says Heidrek travelled a long time
before he arrived there. Christopher Tolkien has also made some notes
about this in connection with his edition of the Hervarar saga and
Heidreks. (Viking Society publication).
Oh yes, here is another reference in Hauksbók: (in the Heimlýsing
section) "austr frá Polena er Reiðgotaland ok Vindland ok þá Húnland."
So it lies "east of Poland". "Vindland" is probably "Wenden".


>Ingemar will kill me if I do not mention the alternative conclusion,
>that the nest of Gaut might be Goetaland at the Scandinavian
>Peninsula - also making sense either being a part of the continent or
>a mainland in shape of a very big island as a counterpart to the
>islands in the sea around the nest - Hreidmare.
>
>In both cases your interpretation of "Hreid" as "Nest" makes sense,
>but are there also similarities to Gothic or other languages?

An initial "h" in front of an "r" is something that was dropped
in the Scandinavian languages. A birds nest "rede" < hreiðr.
I was unable to find a direct Gothic correlation of ON hreiðr.
But if I look at German "horst", that is supposed to be related
(Adler-horst), then I find meanings related to branches and thickets,
and am told to look under "Hürde", which in its turn is said to
be related to Gothic "haurds". Thus we have a relationship to wicker-work
and hurdles; but it is of course not the same word. I think
there were many words in Gohic that were lost. Nevertheless,
the name of a major group of peoples ought not to be lost so
easily. Just to put forward at least *some* idea, let me propose
it was the *greutingi*. Then the "g" became a throat sound
and became an "h" of the old type which is also a throat sound.
As the word wandered through different countries as part of
legends, *greut* changed to *hreut", and gave rise to an idea
of *hreut-goths*  -- still later, this was misunderstood as
"nest-goths" and thus arose the legendary name "hreiðgotar".
(just a theory - it is probably easy to disprove for those who
know more about sound changes than I do)


Best regards
Keth




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