[gothic-l] Re: Reidgotaland

[trbrandt at POST9.TELE.DK]

Keth

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> >
> >Fine - then I only have to agree with you, that this is a name they
> >used sometimes in the second part of the first millenium and up to
> >1200. We can't be sure that the meaning of the name originally
> >was "hreid"="nest", as this might be a misunderstanding connected 
to
> >something they believed at a later stage - just like both of you
> >proposed last night.
> >
> >But how do you then interprete the remark at the Roekstone about 
some
> >men, who 9 generations ago died among the Hreidgoths? Did these men
> >go to Vistula to fight against the Hreidgoths or took this battle
> >place in Scandinavia? Or did I misunderstand the translation in
> >Keth's letter some days ago, when Keth also mentioned Heruls?
> 
> The "heruls" was just something I mentioned to approximate the time
> at which the battle took place. If the reading of the Rök text
> is correct here, then I do not think the persons who comissioned
> the stone would have mentioned a battle 9 generations ago, if they
> themselves did not believe there was such a battle.

I agree about the 6th century.

> Around 500 A.D. when the Goths were defeated and the Langobards
> took over Italy, there must have been a lot of commotion in
> continental Europe. There must also have been many battles. Some
> that we know about, and others that we perhaps do not know about.
> In the back of my mind is the Bråvalla battle. But I don't know
> enough about it, and it might therefore easily be nothing but a
> somewhat poor guess. Nevertheless, until I hear the good arguments,
> I'd like to keep it in mind. Without much hope of resolution
> really, because I believe these questions have been much researched
> earlier. But it is always nice to be able to form ones own opinions
> too.

If the Braavalla battle was the battle between Harald Hildetand and 
Sigurd Ring this probably happened in the middle of the 8th century 
as they according to the same sagas were related to the Frisian king 
Radbor, who died in 719 (as far as I remember). 
 
> I'd also like to keep up my proposal that "Hreið" is a distorted
> form of "Greut". (Earlier I proposed "Reudingi" from Tacitus' book.
> But that has no initial "h" and I therefore think that one is out.)
> But regarding "Greut" I should still like to hear the good counter
> arguments. My proposal is that the distortion partly occurred when
> the name was transferred between different ethnic groups, for
> example in oral communication of histories and legends.

I have no counter arguments, if that is what you suggest. I talk 
about "Hreid" after 500AD, and you talk as far as I can see 
about "Greut" before 250AD. You may be right. 

> Bertil's comment that it is Ukraine, is also a good suggestion.
> Partly because that is also the direction I visualized as I read
> the Hervarar saga. I believe Heidrek grow up somewhere in
> Northern Russia. As he leaves home to seek his fortune, it
> would be natural for him to travel South through Russia.
> His mother was a kind of general Scandinavian person. Daughter
> Of Angantyr the berserker, and growing up in Denmark I think with
> the Jarl Bjartmar. She then gets married somewhere up in Karelen
> or further towards the North East. (just my impressions thus far)
> It is also my assumption that the Scandinavians who used to tell
> the stories that the Icelandic "fornaldr sagas" are based upon
> understood the geography somewhat better than the Icelanders,
> for whom the world of Eastern Europe was more distrant, than for,
> say, a Swede.
> 
> Best regards
> Keth
> 
> 
> P.S. For the "Hervarar Saga ok Heidreks", read the Hauksbók variant.
> It has more pages and differs somewhat from the shorter version
> that one usually finds published. I have not compared the two
> versions word by word, but I know they differ, and that I personally
> prefer the longer version.

Until now I have not been able to find a pattern in Hervarer Saga, 
which I dare to use in any connection. I think you are right, that 
the geographical terms used by the Icelanders often were very 
uncertain - making Reidgotaland the countries where the Goths lived 
in and behind the Oder/Vistula-region. Let us see what Bertil can 
tell us in his next letters.

Best regards
Troels


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