[gothic-l] Re: Reidgotaland

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Hi Francisc, and thank you for your reply!

I looked up "Grytlingar" and saw that it is used by Sturla Þorðarsson
about the "Ribbungar", who were a group of rebels in 13th century
Norway. The meaning is supposedly "men who stay among rocks and cliffs"
as outlaws. It derives from "grjót" which means stone.

>I personally am not very convinced that (H)Reidgoth = Greutung
>There are two reasons:
>1. The phonetic difficulties of hreid = greut
>There is not only the problem of h~g (to a Gothic G corresponds
>generally a G in the other Germanic languages, including Norse), but
>also ei is not the same as eu.
>2. In the Edda appears also the term "Gryting", in connection with the
>Goths, and in my opinion this "Gryting" is the exact Norse equivalent
>of "Greutung".

I did not mean that hreid had *developed* from greut, the way
a word normally develops within the boundaries of one and the
same language. I agree that such development cannot have been very likely.
Thus if "Ur-nordic" had a word corresponding to Gothic greut,
it would probably be something quite similar to greut, since Ur-nordic
was in many ways quite close to Gothic. Then, as you watch
the development of the word within Nordic - while the clock ticks,
so to speak - you will end up with the attested form griót.

(Btw ON gryta f. was a cooking vessel, related to grjót because
the cooking vessels were often made of stone. (soft carvable stone))

What I rather meant, was that the word had been transferred across
language borders, as a possible part of legendary material,
and then on its way passed through some language territory
where its *meaning* was not recognized. Then later, perhaps
in some other language territory, the word was *reinterpreted*
as hreid. I do not know if we have examples of such things
happening with legendary name material, but with ordinary
words, there ought to be many examples.

Any way, I think I'll abandon this theory now. I can see that
the whole mechanism is becoming too vague and uncertain.
And yet, I still find it odd that we don't hear about the
famous Reidgoths from the mediterranean side.


>I have only a German translation of the Edda, by Felix Genzmer ("Die
>Edda - Götterdichtung, Spruchweisheiten und Heldengesänge der
>Germanen", Eugen Diederichs Verlag, München, 1981, 1997). The word
>"Gryting" I found in Hlöðskviða, the German Title being "Das
>Hunnenschlachtlied" = "The Song of the battle of the Huns". There the
>Goths led by Angantyr are fighting against the Huns led by Angantyr's
>halfbrother, Hlöd (both are Heidrek's sons). One of Angantyr's men is
>old Gizur, the Gryting warrior.

I think this is the same poem that is often called "the Battle of
Goths and Huns". It was not part of the "Edda" in the sense that
it was not part of the Codex Regius collection. And yet, many,
such as Genzmer, have found that its type is such that it can
very well be printed as part of a collection of Edda poems.
In the manuscript sources, it was however found as part of
the "Hervarar saga ok Heidreks". Currently there exists an edition
of this saga published by the "Viking Society for Northern Research"
in England. It is in ON and has a glossary at the back. It is
only a small booklet and does not cost very much. I think I recall
the introduction being by Christopher Tolkien.

Here I found one of the verses in Finnur Jónsson's edition:
(as example)

Vers af Hervararsaga, F.J. B II, p. 270:

V.
1. Ár kváðu Humla
Húnum ráða,
Gizur Gautum
Gotum Angantý,
Valdarr Do,num
en Vo,lum Karr,
Alekr enn frækni
enskri þjóðu.

The verse gives a list of the most renowned rulers of various
peoples. Thus it says that "in the old times", Humli ruled
the Huns, Gizurr the Gauts, Angantyr the Goths, Valdarr the Danes,
but Kíarr ruled the Wales, and Alrekr the brave ruled the Anglian
people.

It is interesting to note that the Icelandic poem differentiates
between Goths and Gauts -- something that doesn't surprise,
since that would indeed seem like the normal order of affairs.
Nevertheless, it is nice to see such differentiation explicitly
displayed -- black on white so to speak.

VII.
8. Hvar skalk Húnum
hervíg kenna?

9. (Ang.) Kendu at Dylgju
ok at Dunheiði
ok at þeim o,llum
Jassarfjo,llum.
þar opt Gotar
gunni háðu
ok fagran sigr
frægir vágu.

(This is the verse that was quoted before. The reference is
F.J. BII, p.274-5)

One more note concerning the Reidgoths:
In the Edda poem Vafþrúðnismál, verse 12, where names of horses
are discussed, the Reidgoths are mentioned, and it is spelled *)
with an initial "H", which is nice, because the match with the
Rök inscription then becomes nearly 100 % :

12. "Scinfaxi heitir,
er inn scíra dregr
dag vm drottmavgo;
hesta beztr
þyccir hann meþ Hreiðgotom,
e,y lysir mavn af mari."

*) Bugge's footnote says: "[line] 5. Hreiðgotom, saa ændret for
Stavrimets Skyld efter Formodning af R. Keyser og af K. Müllenhoff
(Hauptzeitschr. f. deutsch. alt. XII, 260); jfr. oldeng. Hréðgotum,
Hræda here og oldn. Hreiðarr, Hreiðmarr. Se og Munch i Norskt
Maanedskr.II, 271f. -- reiðgotom R. hesta beztr þyccir | hann meþ
Reiðgotom Rask M.; reiðgotom (Heste) K."


>
>BTW, here I found also the geographic terms quoted by Bertil.
>In the introduction to this Hlöðskviða, the translator (Genzmer) says
>(this translation from German in English is made by me, being
>obviously imperfect):
>"The persons of this very old song are not attested in historical
>sources; however, Heidrek, Angantyr, Hlöd and Sifka do appear also in
>the Anglo-Saxon poem Widsid; there we hear also of our Ormar
>(Wyrmhere) that he together with Ulfhar (Wulfhere) defended the old
>inherited land with sharp swords in the forest of Vistula against the
>Huns (Aetla's men). A Nordic fragment says furthermore that Heidrek
>was killed at the Harwada mountains, that is the Carpathians. Herefrom
The reference to that is F.J. BII, page 270:
IV.
Þess galt hon gedda
fyr Grafar ósi,
er Heiðrekr var veginn
und Harvaðafjo,llum.
(This the pikefish had to pay for, outside the mouth of (the river)
Grof, that Heidrek was killed under the Harvada Mountains)

>we can suppose the historical basis of our song: after Ermanaric's
>great empire, that reached from the Baltic to the Black Sea, collapsed
>under the Hunic attack, and the Visigoths were pushed south- and
>westwards, while the Ostrogoths came under Hunic control, north of
>Carpathians in the Vistula region persisted a smaller independant
>Gothic realm; a Hunic attack from the south, thus probably through the
>Carpathian mountain passes or westwards by these mountains, was
>repelled on the "Dunheide" in the Dyngja valley (probably the plain on
>the inferior course of the Dunajetz river)."
>That is what Genzmer is saying. In this Hlöðskviða appear also other
>geographic terms, that remain unexplained by Genzmer: Arheim (where
>the Goths are living; in other place Arheim is the place where Gizur
>the Gryting warrior came from), Myrkwid (between the Hunic and the
>Gothic lands), the Jassar mountains (near Dyngja and Dunheide).
>Myrkwid and Jassar mountains were quoted also by Bertil. I am very
>curious what these placenames could really mean.
>
>Francisc

It is a pity that these poems are generally considered outside the Edda
corpus. For it means that most Edda commentators simply skip the various
problems of interpretation that it poses.

Best regards
Keth



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