[gothic-l] Digest Number 224

[Ingemar Nordgren]

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> There are 2 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: Visigoths
>            From: dirk at smra.co.uk
>       2. Sarmatians and Goths in Poland
>            From: Xoxana at webtv.net
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:05:45 -0000
>    From: dirk at smra.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Visigoths
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., ingemar.nordgren at e... wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On the other hand, the conversion to Catholicism allowed for a
> > greater
> > > degree of integration with the 'native' population a fact that has
> > > often been stress as reason for the relative success of the
> Frankish
> > > kingdom.
> >
> > Hello Dirk,
> > Yes indeed, and that is exactly what happened in the Visigotic realm
> -
> > the different groups melted but the preconditions were dissimilar.
> > What was good in France was bad in Spain. The Goths cesed to be
> Goths
> > and so they also ceased to feel loyalty with the king but just with
> > themselves. They were a small group of Germanic speaking nobles and
> > warriors ruling a majority of Roman and Jewish population. When they
> > ceased to stick together  their ethnicity and the central state
> > control dissapeared gradually. At first they could have opportunity
> to
> > grab riches from the Jews and try to make business for themselves
> but
> > in lack of good trade contacts they did not succeed in the long run.
> > Maybe the riches annihilated were used also for imports making a
> short
> > flourishing economy and then collaps. Compare Spain before the Dutch
> > and British took over trade.The pope also may have contributed with
> > kind of bribes making it more appealing for the kings to follow the
> > dictate of Rome in spite of an increasing discontent among the
> > commoners. The copper coinage may be local, isolated communities
> inner
> > trade after the collapse of distant trade,  earlier cared for by the
> > Jews.Also note that free slave labour by the Jews might have in
> short
> > sight led to increased revenue of agriculture.
> >
> > Greetings
> > Ingemar
>
> Hello Ingemar,
>
> you seem to hold the view that conversion from Arianism to Catholicism
> was a 'bad' move  for the Visigothic state in Spain. Your argument
> implies that if the Visigoths had maintained Arianism and thus avoided
> integration into the majority Catholic population they would have
> maintained a higher degreee of ethnic Germanic cohesion and loyalty to
> the king, which in turn would have strengthen state power.
>
> That is an interesting view, but (without knowing too much about it) I
> would tend to see this differently. I thought that the change-over to
> Catholicism came in fact too late for the Visigoths. If they had
> adopted the religion of the majority of the population and allowed for
> a higher degree of social integration they could have mobilised this
> majority population to rally around the king and the ruling Visigothic
> elites. Instead, they continued to alienate virtually all sections of
> society, including the Roman Cathothic majority population to some
> extent but the Jews in particular. The latter may not have been
> essential for the survival of Visigothic power, but Visigothic policy
> towards this group seems to exemplify their overall attitude towards
> different ethnic and religious groups.
>
> In my view, the adoption of Catholicism may have succeeded in buying
> the Visigothic state some time, by for example removing the basis for
> religiously motivated attacks by the Frankish kingdom. Thus, I believe
> that adopting Catholicism at the end of the 6th century (with some
> retractions under Witteric in the early 7th century) was politically
> the right move, but it came far too late and was not accompanied by a
> more general change of attitude.
>
> Also, I cannot see why the conditions in the Frankish kingdom were so
> different from that in the Visigothic realm that the same fundamental
> policy should have produced opposite results. I believe that the
> Visigothic state was weakened by a high degree of segregation among
> different ethinic and religious groups. On top of this came a
> continuous infighting amongs Visigothic nobles, which I don't think
> would have been prevented by the maintaining of Arianism. So when the
> Muslim armies attacked in the early 8th century they were only met by
> different smaller Visigothic military detachments at different points
> and may actually have been very welcomed as saviours from Visigothic
> oppression by other parts of the population (most notably the Jews who
> knew that their brethren in North Africa were generally well-treated
> by the Muslims).
>
> cheers
>
> Dirk


Hello again, Dirk,

I do indeed maintain my wiew. Remeber the most crucial thing is the
dependency of the economy of the Visigothic state on the Jews. During
Arianism the Jews were well treated and had freedom of religion with
special protection from the kings. Arianism was very tolerant toward
other faiths (except by the Vandals) but the main point from the pope to
get influence in the Visigothic state by converting Reccared was to
start persecuting the Jews. Hence anti-semitism and Catholicism goes
hand in hand. This is why the Jews, numerous as they were, were the most
important reason the Arabs did win the war and the state was
extuinguished. This is also why the Gothic ethnicity did not last. Even
if they had suceeded in keeping the state then it should not have been
Gothic but Roman.

Greetings
Ingemar

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