[gothic-l] Re: Visigoths

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

> > Is there real evidence that Arianism was tolerant, while
Catholicism
> > was accompanied by religious intolerance and anti-semitism in the
> 6th
> > and 7th centuries? You already mentioned the Arian Vandals, who
were
> > anything but religiously tolerant but infact notorious for their
> > persecution of Catholics, while Jews enjoyed royal protection for
> > example, by the Catholic Ottonen-Emperors in the 10th century.
>
> I suggest you read Dietrich Claudes books. He is very clear in that
> question. What concerns the Ottonen emperors they in practice had
> close connections with the Eastern Orthodox church and Otto II was
> married to a Byzantinian Princess. Otto III used the Eastern
> Byzantinian Mass ritual so I am not sure you could call them
Catholic
> in the sense they followed the dictates of the Dictator in Rome,
more
> likely the Patriarch in Constantinople. Soon after in 1054 the real
> split happened in the Filioque-question. The most liberal Catholic
> emperor was Fredrik II Hohenstaufen of the old Normandic Altavilla
> descent, who was dethroned by the pope for not being enough
interested
> in killing arabs on crusades.



Hello Ingemar,

I mentioned the Saxon Emperors only as example and meant to include
the Salian and Swabian Hohenstaufen Emperors like Friedrich II as
well. (NB.  the Hohenstaufen (also called Waiblinger) were a Swabian
(South-West German) dynasty not Normannic although Friedrich II was
born in Sicily, but that is off-list material).




> I say that we have to agree to disagree if you disagree also to this
> but that is the nature of scientific debate, isn't it?


Yes, no problem. I read Herwig Wolfram's acount of the question.
Basically, he states that the Visigothic state was very isolationist
and turned against the Jews because they maintained regular contacts
to other countries using religious motivation only as pretext. Wolfram
also does not make a direct link between the Jewish population and the
defeat in 711AD. Instead, he describes how two Visogothic factions,
both decended from Chindaswint fought for  supremacy, thus greatly
weakening the state.


After Witiza's death, Roderich was elected king, much to the nucance
of the faction of Witiza's immediate family. Wolfram suggested that
the defeat against the Muslims could have been due to betrayal by the
Witiza faction, which may have thought that the Muslims could help
them to regain power. But also, Wolfram writes of the general
unpreparedness of the Gothic army, which above all was engaged in the
regular campaigns against the Basques when the Muslim armies arrived.

kind regards
Dirk





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