[gothic-l] Re: Visigoths

[Yair Davidi]

At 15:40 16/02/01 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In gothic-l at y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren at e...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I am trying
> > > to gain some understanding of Visigothic attitudes to other ethnic
> > > groups in the 7th century. Thus, as we know under King Sisebut
>(610-32
> > > or so) the Visigoths aquired sad notorieity for becoming one of
>the
> > > first European states to procecute the Jews on a large scale. I
> > > suspect that the reason for this policy was a combination of
>religious
> > >  fervour and economic interest. Is there any suggestion for the
> > > latter? Sisebut is interestingly the first Visigothic king to
>issue
> > > gold coins on exceptionally large scale. In fact, Tremisses of
>Sisebut
> > > and his successor Suinthila make up some 90% of all 7th century
> > > Visigothic coins. If anybody has some insights I would be
>interested
> > > to discuss these issues.
> >
> > hello Dirk,
> >
> > It is not so complicated in broad I think. The problem is the
>conversion
> > to Catholicism by Reccared. After that the pope arranged to withdraw
>the
> > royal protection of the faith of non-christians because of the
>Catholic
> > persecution of Jews.
>
>
>Hello Ingemar and Manuel,
>
>thank you both for your replies. Ingemar, if I understand you
>correctly, the persecution of the Jews by the Visigoths is the result
>of the conversion from Arianism to Catholicism. But then, the Franks
>were Catholic as well... although they may not have had significant
>Jewish communities in their realm.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Before Arianism had been the uniting glue
>keeping
> > the Ethnicity intact. When catholics, every nobleman was closest to
> > himself and allied with Roman and Celtic groups after the possible
> > economic or other benefit.
>
>
>On the other hand, the conversion to Catholicism allowed for a greater
>degree of integration with the 'native' population a fact that has
>often been stress as reason for the relative success of the Frankish
>kingdom.
>
>
>
>Several groups  also struggled for power.
> > There were a number of Toledocouncils issuing more and more crazy
> > decisions about Jews and in 702 they were made slaves without
> > possibility to be freed, and the owner should control they did not
> > practise their cult. Of course they joined the  Arabs 711 and helped
> > them before that to victory. The Jews had carried the whole
>Visigothic
> > economy you could say and the catastroph 711  was directly related
>to
> > the conversion and persecution of the Jews.I must however stress
>that
> > this was royal and papal policy and several opposition-groups
>struggled
> > for a return to Arianism.
>
>
>Yes and early attempt was made under Witteric, but in general, I
>thought the conversion to Catholicism was the better strategy for the
>reason mentioned above.
>
>
>
>
>I think some of them joined the Cathars in
> > Provence after the fall in 711.
> >
> > Kindly
> > Ingemar
>
>
>
>One thing that I cannot understand is: you said that Jewish merchants
>carried the Visigothic economy (and I belief that this is true to a
>large extent), why should the first severe percecution of the Jews
>coincide with a significant monetarisation of the Visigothic economy.
>As I said in my first posting, the coins of Sisebut and Suinthila
>account for about 90% of Visigothic minting in the 7th century. Such
>an increase in monetarisation should have coincided with flourishing
>trade.
>
>In other words, trade seemed to have increased at a time were the
>conditions for the main trading group deteriorated. One possible
>solution is of course that the sharp increase in mint output is not
>related to trade at all, but to large scale military action, the
>payment of mercenaries and the collection of taxes. After all under
>Suinthila the remaining Byzantine strongholds in southern Spain were
>driven out. On the other hand, this cannot really be the answer as
>many towns in Visigothic Spain started to introduce a small
>municipal copper coinage at the same  time. This coinage would not be
>suitable for paying for armies, but served small trade.
>
>cheers
>Dirk

Some (perhaps many) of the Jews were Goths who had converted to Judaism.
The Jews were allied to the Gothic nobility and economically important to them.
The conversion to Catholicism increased the power of the Monarchy which allied
itself with the Church. By persecuting the Jews it was possible to
undermine the power
of the nobility something that both the Church and Monarchy were interested
in doing.
This in effect also placed more emphasis on the non-Gothic sections of society.
Consequently both Gothic nobles and Jews were not entirely opposed to the
Arab invasion.
Yair Davidi, Jerusalem, Israel


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