[gothic-l] Sarmatians and Goths

[Bertil Häggman]

Dirk,

Your claim concerning coin has little value
unless it is substantiated with other facts.
Who are the Skythian Goths?

Your coinage discussion is interesting but
hardly that relevant. Your enumeration of Germanic
peoples is hardly news.

As far as I understand you have not answered my question.
My claim stands: the Sarmatians remained supreme in the
Pontic steppe until the arrival of the Goths in the third century
AD. The Sarmatians and the Goths seem to have had a
modus vivendi and they became one of the constituent
elements in the composite Cherniakhovo culture.

Gothically

Bertil
> I have cited the fact that the Romans dedicated numerous coin issues
> to the Sarmatians as indication that they may have regarded them as
> fairly important until the mid-5th century. These issues span a period
> of some 250 years, while only 4 small issues were made to account for
> the Goths and none was made to account for the Heruls.
>
> The Romans had the habit of accounting for virtually every military
> engagement that could vaguely be interpreted as a success with the
> minting of coins. Thus, we have coins for larger people like the
> Skythian Goths, Alamanns, Franks, Parthian, Iudeans, Gauls, Britains,
> Sarmatians etc.  but also for very small and little known people like
> the Carpians. (NB. issues with Germanicus or Victoria Germanica always
> refered to clashes with mostly Alamanns, but also Franks, Burgundians,
> Vandals and Suevi). However, the Romans never bothered to issue coins
> alluding to Heruls, which can only mean that they regarded them as too
> insignificant.
>
> For a disscussion of this subject see: B. Overbeck, "Rom und die
> Germanen - Das Zeugnis der Muenzen", Stuttgard 1985.
>
>
>
> > In my opinion coinage can only be one not very
> > significant indication.
>
>
> Coins are after all written documents. Note, their are several Roman
> Emperors and historic events of which we only know through coin
> inscriptions. Maybe you want to expand on the reason why you think
> that they are not very significant.
>
>
>
>
> >We know that Goths
> > and Eruli provided a real threat to the Roman
> > empire during the period 250 to 300 AD (of course
> > later too resulting in the downfall of the Roman empire).
>
>
>
> The question of the reason for the downfall of the Roman Empire is a
> very very big one. While people like the  Goths certainly played a
> part, the reasons for the fall of the Roman empire are far more
> complicated and derive from socio economic and internal political
> factors. Thus, the Goths (let alone the Heruls) have not caused the
> fall of Rome, but are only one of may visible symtomes of an empire
> that was weakened from within.
>
>
>
>
> > You seem to have partly misunderstood my contribution.
> > I was referring to the 2nd century AD.
>
>
> Yes, that makes more sense. But you said that Sarmatian power waned on
> the arrival of Goths from Scandinavia. There is, general agreement
> that if some ancectors of the later Vistula Gutones came from
> Scandinavia that this would have taken place in the 1st century BC.
> That the Vistula Goths of the 2nd century -perhaps profitting from the
> strong involvement of the Sarmatians in the wars with Marcus Aurelius
> - may have succeed in reducing the power of the Sarmatians does sound
> plausible.
>
>
>
>
> > some info on the real Sarmatian influence on the ground?
> > Events, battles, kings that provide hard evidence of their
> influence.
>
>
>
> As you well knew when you made this request, very little is known
> about  the Sarmatians, let alone their ruling dynasties, which is
> likely a result of their fierce independence from Rome. It is not
> even entirely clear what these Sarmatians were: one tribe, a union of
> tribes of different ethnic and/or linguistic components? Some authors
> have argued that Slavs made up parts fo the Sarmatians. At any rate,
> Rome was obviously engaged in military conflicts with the Sarmatians
> over a period of at least 250 years.
>
>
> cheers
> Dirk
>
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Dirk Faltin
>
>
>
> >
> > Bertil
> > > Do we really know that? The Sarmatians were after all still very
> > > powerfull at the time of the so called Marcomannic-Sarmatian wars
> of
> > > Marcus Aurelius (late 2nd century AD) and continued to play an
> > > important role until at least the 4th century.
> > >
> > > In fact, the Romans dedicated commemorative coins only to the most
> > > important of enemies. They only dedicated 4 very small coin issues
> to
> > > the Goths ('Victoria Gothica' of Claudius II, Quintilius and
> Tacitus)
> > > over a period of  about 30 years. To the Sarmatians ,the Romans
> > > dedicated some 45 coin issues, some of them very large, in the
> period
> > > from about 170AD (Sarmaticus, Victoria Sarmatica and Sarmatica
> > > Devicta to about 440AD (last issue 'Sarmatica devicta'). At least
> > > from a Roman point of view this could indicated that the
> Sarmatians
> > > were perceived to be more significant than the Goths for a longer
> > > period of time.
> > >
> > > At any rate, by the time when some ancestors of what would later
> > > become the 'Vistula Gutones' may have arrived from Scandinavia in
> the
> > > 1st century BC, the Sarmatians still seemed to have had a long and
> > > influencial period ahead of them.
>
>
>
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