Ynt: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium

[TURKIYE DERGISI]

Hi, Francisc,

Certainly, legends are not sources of history, but bear quasy-historical
facts that should be regarded. Early Volga Bulgar sources give the name
Audan Dulo with nickname Atil. list of Bulgarian Hans was in Greek
originally and translated into Russian. Avitochol(os, possibly in Greek) and
Audan Dulo seem to be the same. Arpad was khan of Onogurs, founding tribal
group of the Great Bulgar state, then he took Ugric Magyars with him to move
westward. I think there are enough indications to consider (some part of)
that quasy-history as history. As you say this is off-topic and no need to
make this e-group busy with this. But it would be pleasure for me to discuss
these topics and make use of your comments to complete my thesis.

regards,

Osman

----- Original Message -----
From: Francisc Czobor <czobor at cantacuzino.ro>
To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:09 AM
Subject: Ynt: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium


> Hello, Osman
>
> This is off-topic, but I think that the statement "rulers of Danubian
> and Volga Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and
> Balkars of Caucasus were from the same family" is based rather on
> legends than on historical facts. For instance, the rulers of Bulgars
> (both Volga and Danubian) are allegedly descendants of Avitochol, that
> is identifiable with the Hunish king Attila. It is probably plausible.
> But the Hungarian rulers of the Arpad dinasty claimed also to be
> related to Attila, fact that can be not historically attested. Many
> ruling houses claimed such affiliations that were based only on
> legends, mostly created ad-hoc, to support their political claims.
>
> Francisc
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "TURKIYE DERGISI" <turktarihi at t...> wrote:
> > Burgaz is, to me, associated with Porgas. It is a Proto-Bulgarian
> name. One
> > of the early Croatian kings, who are of the same stock as the
> > Proto-Bulgarian khans, is called Porgas, under whom Croats accepted
> > Christianity. Another Porgas was a Bulgar (Tatar) ruler on, as far
> as I
> > remember, Mordvins, who used to live as Bulgar vassals just on the
> north of
> > the Volga Bulgar state. This is very normal, as rulers of Danubian
> and Volga
> > Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and Balkars of
> Caucasus
> > were from the same family. Sources do not mention any Porgas among
> > Proto-Bulgarians, but we have reasons to suppose that they used this
> name as
> > their kins.
> >
> > Another theory may be based on the Altaic clan of Bordjs, who are
> likely the
> > same group as Barsils of Orkhon inscriptions. They were among
> Kumans. In
> > Russia and Ukraine slavicized Bordjs became Burdjevs, in ex-Yugo
> area there
> > are Burdjevichs, who became Burcoglus in Turkey. In Egypt we can
> find
> > El-Borg family descending from Kuman-Qypchaks who established
> Medieval
> > Mamluk state there. Some members of this clan or tribe were
> assimilated
> > among Georgian in caucasia, but major part is to be grandfathers of
> the
> > Borchali living in Eastern Georgia. But those are no longer Kuman,
> but Oghuz
> > Turks, as a result of long neighborhood with Azeris. The second part
> of the
> > city name is As, name of a medieval Irano-Turcic tribe. The As were
> not able
> > to defend themselves in very upheaval of the N. Black Sea region and
> Eurasia
> > steps, thus always refugeed to other stronger formations, causing
> usual
> > double naming: Burt-As, Kenger-As, Alan-As, etc. Askal, the oldest
> known
> > name of Kiev, and Astarhan, in nortern coast of the Khazar sea bears
> their
> > name. Today's Caucasian Osets descent from them. Kumans were very
> crowded in
> > the both sides of Danube, and established the second Bulgarian state
> in
> > 1169. Thus, a Bordj-As union might have given its name to the city.
> Other
> > cities and towns in Turkish Thrace seem to be named under Ottoman,
> since all
> > those cities once had their Greek names.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Osman
> >
> > ...
>
>
>
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