Fwd: Re: Fwd: [gothic-l] Names of Heruls

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> Iusteinus, Bertil, George and Dirk
> 
> Although very different your answers were a great help to me.
>  
> I hope it appeared from my mail, that I was aware of the problems 
> using such corrupted names to trace an origin, and I agree, that a 
> singular name will never tell you the origin of the man himself. 
> However a list of 18 names might indicate some other general traces 
– 
> if such influence exists - than Germanic corrupted by Latin and 
> Greek, or might reveal that there are no indications of a strong 
> Gothic or other Germanic connection at all.
> 
> As 7 names out of 18 can be totally interpreted in Germanic language 
> and 4 others contain probably Germanic elements, I believe it is 
> possible to conclude that there is no evidence showing that the 
> Heruls never were a Gothic people or a Germanic tribe following at 
> least in the end the Ostrogothic route – which does not mean they 
are 
> proved to be Germanics as pointed out by George. 
> 
> Of the remaining 7 names Visandus is recognised as a later Germanic 
> name (Visander), which does not tell anything about the origin, and 
> some people try to make Ochus to be Oche or Ox, but other refer 
> (including Aordus) to a Persian origin – which in the theory could 
be 
> correct as the Heruls had lived at the Black Sea side by side with 
> Alanes (and joined them at the Hunnic Campagne) and were often used 
> as mercenaries in Asia Minor. Datius is sometimes mentioned as a 
> Latin corruption of Danus, but other refer to Latin names. Are 
Dacius 
> or Dag (Day) other possibilities? The U-dominated Uligagus is 
> regarded as a clear corruption by David, but Felix Dahn regarded 
this 
> as an early version of Wolfgang, and the uncommented Aluith, Arufus 
> and Aruth use all the wowels A-U in an identical way in a short 
name. 
> However the 7 names are not explained, which is according to the 
> theory that the names can not give us an unequivocal answer about 
the 
> people. 
> 
> Actually my questions was earlier initiated by the claim from Dirk, 
> that the names Datius and Ochus belonged to a Milanese bishop and a 
> Persian king. This should according to Dirk prove or at least 
> indicate that Procopius had invented the whole story about the 
> Herulian migration to Thule, including the Herulian prince returning 
> from Thule in Procopius' own time. Also David Salo (and earlier 
> S.Sonderegger) mentions these two names as having no Germanic 
> character, but the 7 unexplained names and the general remarks and 
> references from Iusteinus and Bertil confirm that the 2 very short 
> names can not be used as evidence against Procopius, who was a 
> Byzantine writing names in Greek, he had heard in a foreign 
language.
> 
> Troels


Hi Troels,

your summary and conclusions are mostly correct. I also think that the 
Heruls were essentially a Germanic people, possibly with a greater 
degree of aculturation to Alanic/Sarmatian/Hunnic groups than others. 
The fact that they are called Gothic, means nothing in this context as 
this name was also applied to Alans, while all of these Eastern people 
were also called Skyths. 

As to my suggestion that the occurance of Grepes, Ochus, Datius and 
Aordos might be seen as irregular and possibly suggesting another 
interpretation for Procopius passage I need to correct your summary a 
little, at least from my point of view. 

I still regard these names as extremely unusual in comparison to other 
Germanic groups and other Herulic names. The fact that Procopius wrote 
about a pagan Herulic prince from Thule who shared the same name with 
two Christian saints, one of which a Milanese Bishop might have been 
curious to his educated Greek and Roman readership. Especially the 
Milanaese Bishop, Datius was well known at the time. Also, the 
appearance of a name Ochos -the same as a Parthian tyrant- well known 
and well hated by the Greeks and  who was killed by his people in a 
similar context as the Herulian Ochus might have conveyed information 
to a Greek readership that is not obvious to us. I would still 
maintain that these names are highly irregular and that they do cast 
at least some doubt on this passage by Procopius. It should also be 
borne in mind that other reports by Procopius, like his expose on 
Britannia/Brittia is not taken as serious source by historians, as it 
is an obvious mixture of different and contradicting hear-say stories, 
combined with complete fantasy. All in all, I think the verdict on his 
Thule report is still out.

cheers,
Dirk




  




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