Fwd: Re: Fwd: [gothic-l] Names of Heruls

[Troels Brandt]

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
>
> Hi Troels,
>
> your summary and conclusions are mostly correct. I also think that
the
> Heruls were essentially a Germanic people, possibly with a greater
> degree of aculturation to Alanic/Sarmatian/Hunnic groups than
others.
> The fact that they are called Gothic, means nothing in this context
as
> this name was also applied to Alans, while all of these Eastern
people
> were also called Skyths.
>
> As to my suggestion that the occurance of Grepes, Ochus, Datius and
> Aordos might be seen as irregular and possibly suggesting another
> interpretation for Procopius passage I need to correct your summary
a
> little, at least from my point of view.
>
> I still regard these names as extremely unusual in comparison to
other
> Germanic groups and other Herulic names. The fact that Procopius
wrote
> about a pagan Herulic prince from Thule who shared the same name
with
> two Christian saints, one of which a Milanese Bishop might have
been
> curious to his educated Greek and Roman readership. Especially the
> Milanaese Bishop, Datius was well known at the time. Also, the
> appearance of a name Ochos -the same as a Parthian tyrant- well
known
> and well hated by the Greeks and  who was killed by his people in a
> similar context as the Herulian Ochus might have conveyed
information
> to a Greek readership that is not obvious to us. I would still
> maintain that these names are highly irregular and that they do
cast
> at least some doubt on this passage by Procopius. It should also be
> borne in mind that other reports by Procopius, like his expose on
> Britannia/Brittia is not taken as serious source by historians, as
it
> is an obvious mixture of different and contradicting hear-say
stories,
> combined with complete fantasy. All in all, I think the verdict on
his
> Thule report is still out.


Dirk

There are reports about two Thule-events separated by at least 35
years. We are only discussing the last one about the return of a
royal candidate a few years before Procopius wrote, as I agree that
he was not be able to describe the earlier route exactly.

"Datios" and "Aorthos" were born in Scandinavia - probably opposite
most of the other Heruls we discuss here. A mix of people could have
changed names or pronounciation.

"Oxos" was not described as a tyrant by Procopius, but as a very weak
king. If the name was a part of a manipulation, Ochus should have
been the name of Datius.

I do not see the name Gretes involved in those chapters of Procopius,
but a mound close to my house marking the old "main road" between
Sweden and the Continent is called Grettes Hoej, and the nearby town
is called Farum because of the "far" marked by the mound - the same
word as used in Fara. Last winter I found out, that nearby at another
track of the road the remains of a cikadafibula from the Danube-
region (5th century) was found. However I believe there are other
explanations behind these coincidences - and so I believe behind the
coincidences about names of bishops and Parthian kings discussed here.

Troels



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