[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > I am not claiming anything. I just pointed out some observations
> which
> > lead me to belief that Procopius's report about the Heruls may be
> just
> > as dubious as some of his other writing.
>
> Dirk,
>
> I am glad to hear that, as the basis of your arguments regarding
your
> use of the royal names is obvious now. Your question about the value
> of Procopius as source based on the theories of Walter Goffart has
> already been answered by Andreas Schwarcz in February at this list
in
> MSG 3367, 3374 and 3381. I am not able to improve his arguments.


Troels,

The basis of my arguments are my own observations and understandings
how ever limited they may be. Your speculations about Walter Goffart
are totally mis-placed. Also at the danger that I repeat
myself: Goffart is one of the major experts on this period and on
sources of this period no matter what other historians may say.







> However my questions had primarily another purpose. I have already
> this morning concluded about the Germanic character based on the
> answers I got, and comments have also been made about two other
> possible traces: An influence in 1-2 names from Asia Minor, and a
> connection in 1-4 names to the Harudes - both may be explained by
the
> Herulian history. Maybe other listmembers have further ideas?
>
> Regarding the Harudes:
>
> > I read Taylor's article before and find that it is not exactly a
> > piece of brilliance.
>
> Hm! Bertil has made a comment on that.



I am able to judge a scientific article like this -at least on its
general merits- for myself. Taylor's article leaves a lot to be
desired in my view. Others may feel differently.




> > I know that he thinks that Aruth and Aordos relate to
> > the tribal name of the Harudes. However, he forgets something,
> Harudes
> > are mentioned possibly on Jutland and definitely in Lower Saxony,
> > but never in Thule, i.e. Norway.
>
>
> I am not able to follow this argument. The Heruls were mentioned in
> Thule after 500AD,


Thule, is that Norway or Sweden for Procopius? Usually it is seen as
Norway sometimes the Orkneys and sometimes even Iceland as far as I
know. The question maybe analogue to what Procopius understood under
Britannia/Britta. There is good reason to believe that he thought that
 Britannia/Britta is the same as Jutland. Others think that he
confused Britain with Britany, while at the same time confusing it
with a mythtical island of the dead. In general, it is clear that he
knew very little about that region let alonge Thule.



> but the Harudes in Jutland and in Lower Saxony
> were from a much earlier phase.


In Jutland yes, in the south of Lower Saxony the pagus Harudorum was
well known until the middle ages. Also, Harudes have reportedly been
among the troops of the Suevian king Ariovist in around 55BC.





>If the Heruls were separated from
the
> Harudes in the 3rd century in Jutland this will explain the von
> Friesen/Broendsted-theories, an expulsion by the Danes, the Western
> Heruls, the name of the Heruls (Harja-?), the similarities in
> language between Crimea and Northeastern Saxony, the relationship
> between Saxons, Thueringians, Lombards and Heruls, the -lev/-leben-
> names etc.. Actually you wrote something similar two weeks ago and I
> made a counterproposal!! I remember your earlier discussions, but I
> must confess that I have never studied the Harudes and maybe a
> discussion is a subject for Germanic-List.


Yes, here our views clearly converge. I have nothing against the
Heruls coming from Jutland and/or the Danish isles. In fact, I
presented my own theory to this effect sometime ago on the Germanic
list. Whether or not a link to the Harudes can be established remains
an open question, but I think that the Heruls might well have
developed from one of the many tribes that are mentioned especially on
the Jutland peninsula (or  some islands to the east), by Ptolemy.

Also, I have nothing in principle against a smallish group of Heruls
moving northwards after their defeat against the Langobards. In fact,
Marcellinus Comes confirmed that in 512AD a group of Heruls moved to
the Varnians (probably the area of the Nieder Lausitz, mod. Saxony or
mod. Brandenburg or mod. Mecklenburg). This would also be natural,
because they knew the Varnians and they were allies of the Varnians
and their may have been family ties between the ruling elites. The
flight of Risiulf (who may have been a Herulic prince with a claim to
a Langobardic-Herulic overlordship, according to G. Hauptfeldt) to the
Varnians in that year might support that. What is important is that
until this point we have two independent sources, plus archaelogical
evidence to support at least the presence of East Germanic people or
people influenced by Hunnic customs in that area.

>From here the only source is Procopius - Marcellinus knew nothing
about the ensuing events reported by Procopius - and I think there are
problems with Procopius' report as there are problems with other
reports by him. Nevertheless, even if we believe that this group of
Heruls did go to a real place Thule, either in Norway or in Sweden, I
don't believe that they would have effected the massive religious,
cultural and political change that you attribute to them. Note that
reportedly 20,000 Saxons who went to Italy with the Langobards and who
returned after a few years left no mark on the archaeolgical landscape
in southern Lower Saxony were they are supposed to have settled. This
Herulic group would have been much smaller; 2,000 at most, probably
only a couple of hundreds, maybe only members of an extended family.
They would have blended into the society of that area without any
trace, which seems to be supported by negative evidence as no source
of later years ever mentioned the name of the Heruls in Sweden or
Norway.

cheers,

Dirk


PS  We seem to be doomed to clash on this subject, but I still enjoy
the exchange and I think there is a lot to be learned from it.





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