[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Einar Birgisson" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Einar Birgisson" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Einar Birgisson" <einarbirg at y...> 
wrote:
> > > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > >   Einar; Hæ 
> Dirk.                                                    
> >  
> > > 
> > > These are all speculations. 
> > 
> > No, these are not speculations, but the results of analyses 
> conducted 
> > by scholars who know a great deal more about this than the two of 
> us. 
> >  Einar; Hæ Dirk.                                                  
>  
>  Well, it seems to me that the majority of scholars accept that 
> Procopius writings about the travel of the Heruli to Scandinavia is 
> trustworthy..    



Hi Einar,

is it now science by majortiy vote? A majority once thought that the 
earth was a disc ... you know the rest....

                                                    
 
> 
> If you are here(above) talking about the analysis made by Walter 
> Goffart in Narrators of Barbarian History(I hope the book´s name is 
> right here) then I did not find his approach trustworthy and it was 
> very much lacking in depth.And his approach was not made in a 
neutral 
> manner. Far away from 
> that.                                                                
> I have discussed that opinion of mine in a special letter. The name 
> of the letter was: Walter Goffart(as far as I remember).





I remember your letter, it was not an analysis but polemics. Sorry, 
but I really don't think that you are in a league to discredit people 
like Prof. Goffart. 







> > 
> > You can not have any idea about what 
> > > educated Greeks were expecting. And you have no idea of the 
> > > intentions of Procopius. Neither you nor anybody else.
> > 
> > 
> > Again, I suggest you read some of the modern scholars who analysed 
> > Procopius' writing and other contemporary works, before coming up 
> with 
> >   statements like this. In fact, a great deal is known about 
> > Procopius' intentions, outlook, political views. Also a great deal 
> is 
> > known about the general state of knowledge among educated 
> Byzantines 
> > of that time. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > And are you saying that there were these ancient geographers 
that 
> > > were so unreliable? 
> > 
> > I never said that ancient geographers were unreliable. I was only 
> > writing about Procopius who was not a geographer.
> >  
> > >Must be if Procopius just copied from them?
> > 
> > Procopius used many sources, some of them reliable, others less 
so. 
> > Bits about the mid-night sun in Thule and Scandia were 
common-place 
> in 
> >  the mediterranean world and they add not a jota of extra 
> credibility 
> > to Procopius story.
> 
> > > And maybe you can support your claims with 
> evidence.                 
> > 
> > 
> > Well, at least I have cited passages from Procopius that 
> demonstrate 
> > my case extremely well. Speaking of evidence, perhaps you want to 
> come 
> > up with something in that line yourself for once. 
> 
>   Einar;, YOU are making claims. Then YOU have to support your case 
> with evidence. Claims without evidence or good arguments are not 
> worth much....
> The majority of scholars seem to accept my view here. So it is up to 
> you to prove that they are not right. And you were making claims 
> here,not me.


I provided analysis, and quotes from original sources to support my 
observations. Also, the burden of proof is just as much on your side. 
Only because 'a majority' thinks one-way does not determine who has to 
proof what. Given that this alledged majority opinion is based on a 
dubious source, evidence has to be provided by all sides.




> 
> And you have not answered my question from letter 5119.              
 
>   From where did Procopius copy the descriptions of the customs of 
> the Skriðfinnar(the Lappish tribes in northern Scandinavia) from???
> 
> If you can not answer that question in a satisfactory way then I 
will 
> assume, that you are making claims that you can not support with 
good 
> arguments nor evidence. That is you are just expressing you opinion 
> or the opinion of likeminded scholars. Scholars who might be making 
> claims,they can not support with evidence or good arguments..



Back into polemics again?  Einar, read for example J. Svennung on this 
matter, he shows that at the time of Jordanes and Procopius two 
independent sources were available in Constantinopel that reported 
about the Fennae and Scerefennae, who are believed to be one and the 
same Scandinavian tribe. Procopius, I think used what Svennung called 
'source 2'. 

Once again you should really get some back ground information first 
before you make allegations and engage in polemics aimed at silencing 
others.

I don't comment on the rest of your letter, because it irrelevant.

cheers
Dirk



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95
Refill any ink cartridge for less!
Includes black and color ink.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/f00vhB/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/