[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > Risiulf (who may have been a Herulic prince with a claim
> > to a Langobardic-Herulic overlordship, according to
> > G. Hauptfeldt> Varnians in that year might support that.
> > What is important is that
> > until this point we have two independent sources, plus
> archaelogical
> > evidence to support at least the presence of East Germanic people
> or
> > people influenced by Hunnic customs in that area.
>
> Dirk,
>
> We know that some Heruls were accepted in the Bavarian and
Lombardian
> dynasties, but we do not know if Marcellinus and Procopius covered
> the same group. The important and reliable information from
Procopius
> is - as earlier mentioned - regarding the return of the royal
> candidate 35 years later.
>
> > don't believe that they would have effected the massive religious,
> > cultural and political change that you attribute to them. Note
that
> > reportedly 20,000 Saxons who went to Italy with the Langobards and
> who
> > returned after a few years left no mark on the archaeolgical
> landscape
> > in southern Lower Saxony were they are supposed to have settled.
>
> Why should they, if they returned after a few years?


Hi Troels,

this is what archaeologists had expected, so I guess a few years are
seen as sufficient to pick up all sorts of cultural object to take
home. The literature on this is vast.





>
> > This
> > Herulic group would have been much smaller; 2,000 at most,
probably
> > only a couple of hundreds, maybe only members of an extended
> > family.
>
> The only figures we know from Procopius are, that the envoy found
> MANY of royal blood in Scandinavia, and that ONE candidate was
> followed by his brother and 200 young warriors. Your figures are
> presented as the pure guesswork they are.


Certainly, it is guesswork, but that must be allowed. Wolfram tells us
that a strong tribal army consisted of some 3,000 warriors. After just
being defeated by the Langobards, the Herulic army will have been much
reduced. Also many of them will have stayed in the area anyway. The
group that supposedly went to Thule should have been quite small
therefore.

At another point in his works, Procopius explained that an Angian
princess send 100,000 warriors in 400 ships to wage battle against the
Varnians. Procopius emphasises that this is 'absolutely true'. Yet,
any historian will tell you that this is impossible. No ship at the
time could carry 250 warriors and the number of 100,000 is vastly
inflated at any rate, while the whole story is believed to be an
invention anyway. Thus, with our original source beeing the 'mother of
all guess-workers';-) some guessing must be allowed on our part as
well.






>
> Reading the next mails I am afraid we are moving against
repetitions.
> Therefore I have only one further remark.
>
> In your discussion with Einar you mention, that the midnightsun was
> known and that some of his information about the Scandinavian
> Peninsula (his Thule) was taken from old geographers. I agree that
it
> is so and this should also be allowed. However Procopius emphasized
> regarding the midnightsun, that "I made inquiry from those, who came
> to us from the island". Please tell us the motive behind that lie,
> and I also think you owe Einar to tell from where he "stole" that
> very specific information in Book VI,xv,6-15.


First, as I said above, in the context of the 100,000 warriors
Procopius vouches that this is the trues and no less than 100,000 were
sent to the Anglians. Thus, his claim that he made inquiries in
another context does not mean that the information is reliable.

Secondly, I don't 'owe' Einar anything. In fact, most of my arguments
have been completely ignored by him. He jsut refuses to engage in any
of them and in declares in general terms that I have never presented
any. Anyway, I told him to look up J. Svennung in this matter who
explaines were authors like Jordanes and Procopius got their
information about the Scerefennae and Fennae from.

cheers,
Dirk

PS  Since people seem to 'owe' others replies, perhaps you could take
on the obligation to answer the question how Procopius could be so
sure about the 100,000 Anglians in 400 ships if he is such a reliable
informant?





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