[gothic-l] Re: Greutung, Treving, Rus

[Troels Brandt]

--- In gothic-l at y..., george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> --- åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at i...> wrote:
.......................
>  By the way, 
> > I did not found the word "rau?s" in Codex argenteus.
> > Can anyone 
> > comment whether this form is restored (e.g. from ON
> > "raud") or it is 
> > known from some other documents?
> > 
> > I also consider Reidgotaland as a "movable' notion.
> > Since it is 
> > encountered in Icelandic sagas only a few times
> > while (as far as 
> > I know) is represented on Swedish runic stones, the
> > initial allocation 
> > of Reidgotaland should be searched somewhere in the
> > east.
> 
> *****GK: Why not the Vistula? Modern science holds
> that the historical Goths (no matter where some of
> their components originated) were formed South of the
> Baltic, and were initially represented by the Wielbark
> culture (as were the Gepids). And we do have WIDSITH
> which suggests this location.******


I hope I do not disturb your polemics, but regarding one of the 
initial questions I have noticed that you did not mention the Roek 
Stone in Eastern Goetaland from around 800 AD:

".... I say this second, who nine generations ago lost his life with 
the Hraidkutum; and died with them for his guilt. ThjódríkR the bold,
chief of sea-warriors, ruled over the shores of the Hraidsea. Now he 
sits armed on his Kutu(Gothic horse), his shield strapped, the prince 
of the Mariki. ...."

The last sentence probably refers to a statue of Theodoric being 
moved to Aachen by Charlemagne around 800 AD. "Mariki" is also met in 
the OE "Deor" with connection to Theodoric.

The text is not easy to interprete, but at least Hraidgotaland must 
be situated at a sea. The mouth of Vistula is one of the 
possibilities - as told in Widsith - if they in Sweden around 800 AD 
regarded Theodoric as a successor of Ermaneric. As Theodoric was 
regarded "chief of sea-warriors" we shall pay more attention to their 
geographical names than their historical knowledge. 

Jutland as Hreidgotaland is as far as I remember a much later 
invention (Snorri).  

Troels


> 
> > Ermanaric's Empire seems to be a good place for
> > this.
> 
> *****GK: Well certainly for one of the
> "Reidgotalands". And quite logically, since many of
> the later Wisigoths and Ostrogoths had migrated
> westward from that area.******
> 
>  Later this 
> > notion shifted to northwest along with general
> > movement direction 
> > of Germanic tribes, Heruls specifically. Finally, it
> > drifted to Baltic Sea 
> > and contemporary Denmark. Of course, I mean no
> > direct connection 
> > between Reidgotaland and Russia. However, Goths
> > remained 
> > in Crimea until XVI Ó. (at least).
> 
> *****GK: That is indeed arguable, even if the notion
> that a distinct Gothic language persisted among the
> Crimean "Goths" is not absolutely certain.******

............




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