[gothic-l] Re: Heruli / Harii

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at p...>"
<trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> <dirk at s...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Troels,
> >
> > that is an interesting idea with the Harii and/or Hirri beeing
the
> > predecessors of the Heruli. As you know Pal Lakatos sort of
assumes
> > that the Hirri mentioned by Plinius are the same as the later
> Heruli.
> > Perhaps the development went along similar lines as Iutes and
> Eudoses
> > or Iutes and Iuthungi? It might be possible, that the later names
> > mean something like the offspring or decendents of the former.
> > However, this is highly speculative. Let us know what you find.
> >
>
> Hi Dirk
>
> I agree that this is speculative - and I do not expect to be able
to
> prove such a connection by analyzing the names. I am trying to
> exclude possibilities, but reading Makaev I have been aware that an
> earlier explanation of "ErilaR" has been excluded by a mistake.
>
> I do not think the development is similar to the Iutes. Not so many
> centuries earlier the Goths were formed by different tribes just
> north of the Hirri/Harii, and I guess that the Harii simply were
> pressed against southeast when the Goths expanded in that direction
> and that they became known as people from the north/swamps seen
from
> the Romans.



Hi Troels,

that is possible. One other example would be the (Hermun-)Duri and
the Turingi/Doringi. The name Turingi is usually explained
as 'decendents of the (Hermun-) Duri. This may not be completely
comparable, but it shows that this kind of name-relationships were
possible.




>
> The Western Heruls could be the army of Naulobates going into Roman
> service after their surrender to the emperor Gallienus near
> Thessaloniki 268 AD. We know that Naulobates got a high Roman
title.
> They may have been moved as mercenaries to the border areas of the
> Rhine in order to avoid conflicts with their kinsmen in the Gothic
> area. Alans were used the century before in England. Therefore a
> group of harrying Eruli could be met first time in France in 286
AD.
> Of course some of the Harii could instead have moved directly from
> Upper Vistula to the Rhine when the Goths expanded, but the change
of
> name is easier to explain if it followed a group from the Black Sea.
>



Again, an interesting theory. I tend to see the western Heruli in
conjunction with the Rhine-Warnians and the Rhine-Thuringians. The
latter two were also groups from further east who at some stage ended
up at the Rhine. But admittingly, the western Heruls appear much
earlier.

Dirk






> I think this is the most simple way to explain the mysteries about
> the disappearence of the feared, harrying Harii and the following
> origin of the feared, harrying Heruls combining the historical
> fragments we know. But I am guessing.
>


> This has been discussed before and I do not think the "ErilaR"-
> inscriptions has anything to do with the migrating Heruls of
> Procopius as some of the inscriptions are from the 5th century, but
> some Western Heruls from Frisia could be the "ErilaR". That is the
> background for my question after reading Makaev.
>
> Troels


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