[gothic-l] Re: the "Goths" were believing Christians, not pagans

[vernonpeberty <vernonpeberty@yahoo.com>]

>
> The idea that "*most* Goths were astute Christians in the 5th
century" is not supported by the sources or accepted by many leading
authors.

The idea that *most* Goths were NOT Christians in the 5th century is
utterly baseless.

> The Goths did not convert to Christianity easily or sincerely.
Heather mentions how "the Tervingi resisted the spread of
Christianity in at least two periods of persecution, in 347/8 and
from 369 onwards (Heather, Goths and Romans 105). Athanaric ordered
the persecution of Christians because "the ancestral religion was
becoming debased" no doubt from the negative influence of
Christianity on the traditional Gothic culture, values and community
solidarity.

This is not a serious appraisal of the real religious status of the
Goths at this time. They were believing Christians. The reference
to "traditional Gothic culture, values and community solidarity" is
completely baffling. Can you describe what these are?

  In the opinion of Eunapius, "the Tervingian refugees had only
feigned their Christianity in order to be admitted by the Romans"
(Wolfram, Goths 84).
> "The Goths would seem to have been afraid that Christianity would
undermine that part of Gothic identity which was founded in their
common inherited beliefs, so that religion was not just an individual
concern, but also a political issue standing in some relation to
Gotho-Roman affairs."  The Goths officially adopted the Arian
Christianity of the emperor Valens in 376 not because of the more
than half a century of unsuccessful missionary work, which was
completely rejected by the Goths; the Tervingi accepted Christianity
to please the emperor who was admitting them into Roman lands.

The Goths were NOT afraid that Christianity would undermine
that "part of Gothic identity which was founded in their common
inherited beliefs". The missionary work must have been extremely
successful to judge by their early and complete conversion. We no
nothing at all about any "common inherited beliefs" before that.


 "The Gothic priests carried the old cult images with them in the
crossing, which further substantiates the insignificance of this
surface conversion to the new religion.

The conversion was neither "surface" nor "insignificant", but below
the surface and very significant.

>
> It is also important to note that the Heruli and the Ostrogoths did
not convert to Christianity in 375 like the Visigoths who settled
within the Roman empire. The Ostrogoths only began to truly
incorporate Christian tradition shortly before their demise, and
therefore, for the duration of their history, whether "officially"
Christian or not, they remained culturally pagan. The Ostrogoths did
not convert until the later 400s, which was the first time any real
missionary work was done among the Goths.

The "official" Christianity of the Ostrogoths was quite real. We no
nothing at all about any "common inherited beliefs" before that.

>
> When the Huns settled along the Danubian plain in the southern part
of old Roman Dacia they blocked direct contact between the Ostrogoths
[and also the Heruli] and the Christian centers in the
south...Christianity did not suddenly make the Goths a new people.

It made them a newly Christian people. The Goths quickly became
instrumental in the spread of Christianity.

Theoderic really began to build on Imperial/Christian traditions of
kingship only after the settlement in Italy. Ceremonies traditional
to his people and their great warlords marked the early stages in the
growth of his power.

Theoderic was fully Christian. We know nothing at all about
any "traditional ceremonies" before his time.

 "Despite his attempts and those of his grandson Athalaric and his
daughter Amalaswintha to incorporate the dress and ceremonies of the
eastern imperial court into Ostrogothic kingship, the raising of
Witiges on a shield amid a circle of raised swords demonstrates how
little progress had been made...

The Goths eager acceptance of Christianity demonstrates how much
progress had been made in very little time.

...the nobility did not give up their pagan beliefs any more than the
commoners (Burns 150/160).

The nobility quickly gave up their pagan beliefs and urged the
commoners to do the same.
>
> Albareiks
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vernon Peberty


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