[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[vernonpeberty <vernonpeberty@yahoo.com>]

>
"> These things all refer to a handful of bishops and noblemen, but
do not reflect the beliefs, inner convictions or practices of the
Goths on the whole.

What evidence exists that they would have other "beliefs, inner
convictions or practices" than those inspired by Christianity? I have
never seen any evidence that undermines the Goths' Christianity.

  "Also, side by side with the Christian imagery on Ostrogothic
spangenhelms and other ornaments are animals, hunting scenes and
other symbols which defy a Christian interpretation.

Decorative art has always shown imagry which is difficult or
impossible to trace to a religious source. It does not seem advisable
to attach religious significance to scenes from daily life,
especially when no clear religious symbols are present.


  "As you know, evidence for the religion of the common people is
very, very slim.  However, if the many detailed reports of surviving
pagan practices from from 5th-7th century Visigothic Spain are any
indication, then it becomes clear that paganism did indeed survive
for much longer.

Why would the common people have a different religion than the nobles?
Did you not say that the nobles were the ones who chose to remain
pagan? Please clarify. What "detailed reports of surviving pagan
practices" are you talking about besides those of Stephen McKenna?

> In _Paganism and Pagan Survivals in Spain up to the Fall of the
Visigothic Kingdom_ Stephen McKenna describes some aspects of heathen
worship, magic and customs of the Visigoths.

He does describe some aspects, but neglects to cite his sources,
leading many critics to describe his work as "fantasy literature".

McKenna states that the rank and file of the Goths remained pagan for
the most part because Arians did not have as much of a problem with
heathenism as Catholics, and they did not make any substantial
efforts to weed out the old religion in the 5th century.

What evidence is there for this assertion? I have never seen any
evidence that Arians viewed pagans very differently than Catholics.
In the face of the evidence, I am forced to conclude that there were
no Gothic pagans to weed out in the 5th century.
>
> Spanish bishops said that "throughout almost the whole of Spain and
Gaul the sacrilege of idolatry has become deeply rooted." Martin of
Braga mentions that ignorance is the cause of people continuing to
worship the pagan gods.

How does this relate to Goths? Martin of Braga does not appear to
have at ant time specifically charged Goths with this ignorance.

 The autobiography of Valerius tells about the unbecoming songs and
dances performed at a meeting of pagans in the forest at night, and
of some pagans who worshipped idols on the top of a mountain. The
later law codes demonstrate that heathen temples and sacrifices
continued as a feature of Visigothic Spain. Pagan temples and idols
continued to be prevalent up to at least 641.

Valerius does not describe the country's pagan inhabitants as Goths.

 In the later years of the kingdom, the Visigoths are reported to
have worshipped fountains, trees and stones, which was prominent
enough to be considered a serious problem at the council of Toledo in
693.  It is also worth noting that the old pagan burial practices
survived in Visigothic Spain until the conversion to Catholicism.

What did these pagan burial practices consist of? I would describe
these burial practices as Christian or Arian. That is how I described
them in my recent article on Gothic burial customs in Spain.
>
> If the Goths as a whole had sincerely converted to Christianity by
the end of the 5th century, none of these reports would exist.

I know of no reports specifically charging Goths with paganism. All
of the reports which I have seen level the charge of paganism against
other groups than the Goths, who are always described as Christians.
The burial customs of Visigothic Spain, which I have investigated at
length, are clearly Christian. While I understand your point of view,
I want to see some hard evidence before I conclude that the Arians
were somehow less Christian than the Catholics.

Vernon Peberty





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