[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[AElfric <amali@softhome.net>]

<<What evidence exists that they would have other "beliefs, inner=20
convictions or practices" than those inspired by Christianity? I have
never seen any evidence that undermines the Goths' Christianity.>>

If you feel you cannot rely on McKenna, then see E.A. Thompson _The
Goths in Spain_, Clarendon Press, 1969, pages 54-56 and 308-310.  The
pagan practices were mentioned in the law of Alaric II and at the 3rd
council of Toledo.

<<Why would the common people have a different religion than the
nobles?>>

Because people don't always agree with or obey their authorities, as
history has often shown.  This conflict can even be seen among the
Goths: _The Passion of St Saba_ demonstrates that on the villiage
level, there could be a lack of cooperation with the adminstration
concerning religious matters.

<<Did you not say that the nobles were the ones who chose to remain
pagan? Please clarify.>>

That was actually a quote from Burns, who seems to think that pagan
imagery present on ornaments that could have only belonged to the
nobles indicates a survival of paganism among the upper classes.
That seems probable if the upper classes were indeed insincere about
their Christianity.

<<He does describe some aspects, but neglects to cite his sources,
leading many critics to describe his work as "fantasy literature".>>

Yes, not citing sources does indeed greatly reduce the strength of an
argument.  You yourself have yet to cite a single source or present a
single shred of evidence in this discussion to support your
assertions.

<<<<<<McKenna states that the rank and file of the Goths remained
pagan for the most part because Arians did not have as much of a
problem with heathenism as Catholics, and they did not make any
substantial efforts to weed out the old religion in the 5th century.
>>>>>>>

<<What evidence is there for this assertion? I have never seen any
evidence that Arians viewed pagans very differently than Catholics.
In the face of the evidence, I am forced to conclude that there were
no Gothic pagans to weed out in the 5th century.>>

To quote Thompson, that "the 3rd council of Toledo and the synod of
Narbonne instructed Gothic officials to inquire into pagan practices
shows that some at least of these practices could be found among the
Goths, for these officials had no jurisdiction over Romans at this
date," _The Goths in Spain_, 55-56.

<<What did these pagan burial practices consist of? I would describe
these burial practices as Christian or Arian. That is how I described
them in my recent article on Gothic burial customs in Spain.
I know of no reports specifically charging Goths with paganism. All
of the reports which I have seen level the charge of paganism against
other groups than the Goths, who are always described as Christians.
The burial customs of Visigothic Spain, which I have investigated at
length, are clearly Christian. While I understand your point of view,
I want to see some hard evidence before I conclude that the Arians
were somehow less Christian than the Catholics.>>

Again to quote Thompson, "The conversion to Catholicism marks the
ends of the custom of burying goods along with the dead and marks the
dissapearance of the traditional Gothic form of dress" (109).
Burying goods with the dead cannot, of course, be seen as a custom
originating in Arianism, but rather, the Goths had buried goods with
the dead for centuries back into their pagan past when they first
appear archeologically as the Wielbark culture.  The Goths were a
Germanic people, and this was a pagan Germanic custom that survived
in Visigothic Spain until the conversion to Catholicism.

Albareiks


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