[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[Tore Gannholm]

I think this is a very weird discussion. We are discussing who is
most Christian Arians, Ortodox or Catholics.

It is a fact that most of the old pagan rites were incorporated by
the Christian priests into the new religon (at least in Scandinavia).
By doing so the priests managed to introduce their religion and let
the people continue with their old pagan rites. Many of these pagan
rites are still in practice today.

The conclusion of the discussion must be that most of the Christian
world is still pagan in practices.

Tore



>  >
>"> These things all refer to a handful of bishops and noblemen, but
>do not reflect the beliefs, inner convictions or practices of the
>Goths on the whole.
>
>What evidence exists that they would have other "beliefs, inner
>convictions or practices" than those inspired by Christianity? I have
>never seen any evidence that undermines the Goths' Christianity.
>
>   "Also, side by side with the Christian imagery on Ostrogothic
>spangenhelms and other ornaments are animals, hunting scenes and
>other symbols which defy a Christian interpretation.
>
>Decorative art has always shown imagry which is difficult or
>impossible to trace to a religious source. It does not seem advisable
>to attach religious significance to scenes from daily life,
>especially when no clear religious symbols are present.
>
>
>   "As you know, evidence for the religion of the common people is
>very, very slim.  However, if the many detailed reports of surviving
>pagan practices from from 5th-7th century Visigothic Spain are any
>indication, then it becomes clear that paganism did indeed survive
>for much longer.
>
>Why would the common people have a different religion than the nobles?
>Did you not say that the nobles were the ones who chose to remain
>pagan? Please clarify. What "detailed reports of surviving pagan
>practices" are you talking about besides those of Stephen McKenna?
>
>>  In _Paganism and Pagan Survivals in Spain up to the Fall of the
>Visigothic Kingdom_ Stephen McKenna describes some aspects of heathen
>worship, magic and customs of the Visigoths.
>
>He does describe some aspects, but neglects to cite his sources,
>leading many critics to describe his work as "fantasy literature".
>
>McKenna states that the rank and file of the Goths remained pagan for
>the most part because Arians did not have as much of a problem with
>heathenism as Catholics, and they did not make any substantial
>efforts to weed out the old religion in the 5th century.
>
>What evidence is there for this assertion? I have never seen any
>evidence that Arians viewed pagans very differently than Catholics.
>In the face of the evidence, I am forced to conclude that there were
>no Gothic pagans to weed out in the 5th century.
>>
>>  Spanish bishops said that "throughout almost the whole of Spain and
>Gaul the sacrilege of idolatry has become deeply rooted." Martin of
>Braga mentions that ignorance is the cause of people continuing to
>worship the pagan gods.
>
>How does this relate to Goths? Martin of Braga does not appear to
>have at ant time specifically charged Goths with this ignorance.
>
>  The autobiography of Valerius tells about the unbecoming songs and
>dances performed at a meeting of pagans in the forest at night, and
>of some pagans who worshipped idols on the top of a mountain. The
>later law codes demonstrate that heathen temples and sacrifices
>continued as a feature of Visigothic Spain. Pagan temples and idols
>continued to be prevalent up to at least 641.
>
>Valerius does not describe the country's pagan inhabitants as Goths.
>
>  In the later years of the kingdom, the Visigoths are reported to
>have worshipped fountains, trees and stones, which was prominent
>enough to be considered a serious problem at the council of Toledo in
>693.  It is also worth noting that the old pagan burial practices
>survived in Visigothic Spain until the conversion to Catholicism.
>
>What did these pagan burial practices consist of? I would describe
>these burial practices as Christian or Arian. That is how I described
>them in my recent article on Gothic burial customs in Spain.
>>
>>  If the Goths as a whole had sincerely converted to Christianity by
>the end of the 5th century, none of these reports would exist.
>
>I know of no reports specifically charging Goths with paganism. All
>of the reports which I have seen level the charge of paganism against
>other groups than the Goths, who are always described as Christians.
>The burial customs of Visigothic Spain, which I have investigated at
>length, are clearly Christian. While I understand your point of view,
>I want to see some hard evidence before I conclude that the Arians
>were somehow less Christian than the Catholics.
>
>Vernon Peberty
>


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