[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

Sat Dec 21 01:51:10 UTC 2002

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...>
wrote:
> I think this is a very weird discussion. We are discussing who is
> most Christian Arians, Ortodox or Catholics.

The origin of this "wierd discussion" is the assertion that Arian
Christians were somehow less Christian than Catholics and also more
tolerant of paganism (see Aelfric). This assertion is unfounded.

>
> It is a fact that most of the old pagan rites were incorporated by
> the Christian priests into the new religon (at least in
Scandinavia).

No such evidence of "old pagan rites" has been found among the Goths
of the Christian period, who appear to have been fully Christian in
every respect. However, I do not take issue with your assertion
that "old pagan rites" survived in Scandinavia. There is plentiful
evidence, literary and otherwise, that pagan customs have survived to
the present moment in Scandinavia - but that is outside the scope of
this discussion. For the historical Goths we have no such evidence.

> By doing so the priests managed to introduce their religion and let
> the people continue with their old pagan rites. Many of these pagan
> rites are still in practice today.

As I mentioned, I do not take issue with this assertion as it relates
to Scandinavia.

> The conclusion of the discussion must be that most of the Christian
> world is still pagan in practices.

Let me be frank. I do not profess Christianity and have no bias about
whether it is pagan or not. However, we have no evidence of any kind
that the historical Goths were anything but fully Christian.

Linda A Richters

>
> >  >
> >"> These things all refer to a handful of bishops and noblemen, but
> >do not reflect the beliefs, inner convictions or practices of the
> >Goths on the whole.
> >
> >What evidence exists that they would have other "beliefs, inner
> >convictions or practices" than those inspired by Christianity? I
have
> >never seen any evidence that undermines the Goths' Christianity.
> >
> >   "Also, side by side with the Christian imagery on Ostrogothic
> >spangenhelms and other ornaments are animals, hunting scenes and
> >other symbols which defy a Christian interpretation.
> >
> >Decorative art has always shown imagry which is difficult or
> >impossible to trace to a religious source. It does not seem
advisable
> >to attach religious significance to scenes from daily life,
> >especially when no clear religious symbols are present.
> >
> >
> >   "As you know, evidence for the religion of the common people is
> >very, very slim.  However, if the many detailed reports of
surviving
> >pagan practices from from 5th-7th century Visigothic Spain are any
> >indication, then it becomes clear that paganism did indeed survive
> >for much longer.
> >
> >Why would the common people have a different religion than the
nobles?
> >Did you not say that the nobles were the ones who chose to remain
> >pagan? Please clarify. What "detailed reports of surviving pagan
> >practices" are you talking about besides those of Stephen McKenna?
> >
> >>  In _Paganism and Pagan Survivals in Spain up to the Fall of the
> >Visigothic Kingdom_ Stephen McKenna describes some aspects of
heathen
> >worship, magic and customs of the Visigoths.
> >
> >He does describe some aspects, but neglects to cite his sources,
> >leading many critics to describe his work as "fantasy literature".
> >
> >McKenna states that the rank and file of the Goths remained pagan
for
> >the most part because Arians did not have as much of a problem with
> >heathenism as Catholics, and they did not make any substantial
> >efforts to weed out the old religion in the 5th century.
> >
> >What evidence is there for this assertion? I have never seen any
> >evidence that Arians viewed pagans very differently than Catholics.
> >In the face of the evidence, I am forced to conclude that there
were
> >no Gothic pagans to weed out in the 5th century.
> >>
> >>  Spanish bishops said that "throughout almost the whole of Spain
and
> >Gaul the sacrilege of idolatry has become deeply rooted." Martin of
> >Braga mentions that ignorance is the cause of people continuing to
> >worship the pagan gods.
> >
> >How does this relate to Goths? Martin of Braga does not appear to
> >have at ant time specifically charged Goths with this ignorance.
> >
> >  The autobiography of Valerius tells about the unbecoming songs
and
> >dances performed at a meeting of pagans in the forest at night, and
> >of some pagans who worshipped idols on the top of a mountain. The
> >later law codes demonstrate that heathen temples and sacrifices
> >continued as a feature of Visigothic Spain. Pagan temples and idols
> >continued to be prevalent up to at least 641.
> >
> >Valerius does not describe the country's pagan inhabitants as
Goths.
> >
> >  In the later years of the kingdom, the Visigoths are reported to
> >have worshipped fountains, trees and stones, which was prominent
> >enough to be considered a serious problem at the council of Toledo
in
> >693.  It is also worth noting that the old pagan burial practices
> >survived in Visigothic Spain until the conversion to Catholicism.
> >
> >What did these pagan burial practices consist of? I would describe
> >these burial practices as Christian or Arian. That is how I
described
> >them in my recent article on Gothic burial customs in Spain.
> >>
> >>  If the Goths as a whole had sincerely converted to Christianity
by
> >the end of the 5th century, none of these reports would exist.
> >
> >I know of no reports specifically charging Goths with paganism. All
> >of the reports which I have seen level the charge of paganism
against
> >other groups than the Goths, who are always described as
Christians.
> >The burial customs of Visigothic Spain, which I have investigated
at
> >length, are clearly Christian. While I understand your point of
view,
> >I want to see some hard evidence before I conclude that the Arians
> >were somehow less Christian than the Catholics.
> >
> >Vernon Peberty
> >
>
>
> --

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