[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[jonaegilsen <jonaegilsen@yahoo.com>]

Hello Dirk and all.

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
<dirk at s...> wrote:

<<Tell, me that you are joking please;-) Of course, most Goths were
> > firm and astute Christians in the 5th and 6th century. They had
their own bishops and theological tradition. The process of
convergence started already in the late 3rd century. Theoderic the
Great, himself was proud to be born to Christian parents. In fact,
his mother was a Catholic, and possibly a Roman.>>

Yes I think what you say is right. He was a proud Christian.


> >Aelfric wrote:
> > The idea that "*most* Goths were astute Christians in the 5th
century" is not supported by the sources or accepted by many leading
authors.

It is known they were Christian long before this time.

>Dirk wrote:
> Firstly, we were talking about the period 5th/6th century. As Tim
pointed out, by this time Christian burial practice, Christian
imagery on almost all Ostrogothic Spangenhelms, Gothic bishops
(since the early 4th century), large crosses around the neck of
Gothic kings on their coins, Gothic Christian martyrs in the 4th
century, all this suggests that Christianity was well established
among most Goths by the second half of the 5th and certaintly the
6th century.

Yes I think what you say is right. I have much interest for Gothic
Christian martyrs. For Christianity in Europe the Goths were maybe
most important after Romans and Greeks.

>Aelfric:
> > The Goths did not convert to Christianity easily or sincerely.
Heather mentions how "the Tervingi resisted the spread of
Christianity in at least two periods of persecution, in 347/8 and
from 369 onwards (Heather, Goths and Romans 105). Athanaric ordered
the persecution of Christians because "the ancestral religion was
becoming debased" no doubt from the negative influence of
Christianity on the traditional Gothic culture, values and community
solidarity.  In the opinion of Eunapius, "the Tervingian refugees
had only feigned their Christianity in order to be admitted by the
Romans" (Wolfram, Goths 84).

Negative influence from Christianity is opinion. Many others would
say Christianity made Goths one people that were many before. Maybe
some Goths went to Skandinavia and learned about heathenism instead
since then Skandinavia was all heathen. But I think all Goths were
Christian then since it was their culture and pride.

> Dirk:
> That is true, but it does not mean that later generations in the
> 5th/6th century were not serious about their Christianity.

I think they were very serious like you say since it was their
culture and family value.

> >Aelfric:
> > "The Goths would seem to have been afraid that Christianity
would undermine that part of Gothic identity which was founded in
their common inherited beliefs, so that religion was not just an
individual concern, but also a political issue standing in some
relation to Gotho-Roman affairs."

I think Christianity was their identity. They were not afraid and
choose Christianity.

 Aelfric:
  The Goths officially adopted the Arian
> Christianity of the emperor Valens in 376 not because of the more
than half a century of unsuccessful missionary work, which was
completely rejected by the Goths; the Tervingi accepted Christianity
to please the emperor who was admitting them into Roman lands.

I think it was accepted not rejected. It was successful. Then they
accepted Christianity to please themself and the people. I think it
made them happy like history says.

 Aelfric: The
> Gothic priests carried the old cult images with them in the
crossing, which further substantiates the insignificance of this
surface conversion to the new religion.

In many churches are images of saints and Jesus. They are Christian
and insignificance is a wrong word since they are still Christian.
Thank you.

Jon





>
> Again, this is the 4th century situation.
>
>
>
>
>
> > It is also important to note that the Heruli and the Ostrogoths
did
> not convert to Christianity in 375 like the Visigoths who settled
> within the Roman empire. The Ostrogoths only began to truly
> incorporate Christian tradition shortly before their demise, and
> therefore, for the duration of their history, whether "officially"
> Christian or not, they remained culturally pagan. The Ostrogoths
did
> not convert until the later 400s, which was the first time any
real
> missionary work was done among the Goths.
>
>
> From the onset of Ostrogothic history in Italy, Ostrogothic
> Christianity is presented as firm and vibrant, with virtually no
> outside traces of paganism left. From this I think it is clear
that
> Christianity had spread already in the preceeding decades.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > When the Huns settled along the Danubian plain in the southern
part
> of old Roman Dacia they blocked direct contact between the
Ostrogoths
> [and also the Heruli] and the Christian centers in the
> south...Christianity did not suddenly make the Goths a new people.
> Theoderic really began to build on Imperial/Christian traditions
of
> kingship only after the settlement in Italy. Ceremonies
traditional
> to his people and their great warlords marked the early stages in
the
> growth of his power. Despite his attempts and those of his
grandson
> Athalaric and his daughter Amalaswintha to incorporate the dress
and
> ceremonies of the eastern imperial court into Ostrogothic
kingship,
> the raising of Witiges on a shield amid a circle of raised swords
> demonstrates how little progress had been made...the nobility did
not
> give up their pagan beliefs any more than the commoners (Burns
> 150/160).
>
>
>
> That is hardly plausible. By the time of Witigis the Ostrogoths
could
> already look back at a long Christian tradition. They had
> commissioned bibles and other Christian writing in their own
> language. The Ostrogothic mission was affecting the North-Alpine
> regions from the the late 400s, where Gothic words related to
> Christian matters survive to today. The survival of traditions
like
> the raising on the shield can not be cited as evidence for
> unsuccessful Christianisation. Such practices survived in many
> Christian groups for much longer. Yet, archaeological evidence
shows
> that Ostrogothic weapons, especially helmets were adorned with
> Christian crosses, showing that leading warriors wanted to be seen
as
> Christians. Since the mid-5th century the Burgundian warriors
> prefered the depiction of biblical scence like 'Daniel in the lion
> pit' on their belt buckles.  Also, consider the recently excavated
> Ostrogothic pilgrimage centre at the Hemmaberg in Kaernten, were a
> Gothic Arian chruch was build in the late 5th century far away
from
> the residence. This shows that Christianity was not only confined
to
> small groups in Ravenna, but purtained also to the periphery.
>
> cheers,
> Dirk
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Albareiks




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