[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...>
wrote:
> I think this is a very weird discussion. We are discussing who is
> most Christian Arians, Ortodox or Catholics.
>
> It is a fact that most of the old pagan rites were incorporated by
> the Christian priests into the new religon (at least in
Scandinavia).
> By doing so the priests managed to introduce their religion and
let
> the people continue with their old pagan rites. Many of these
pagan
> rites are still in practice today.
>
> The conclusion of the discussion must be that most of the
Christian
> world is still pagan in practices.
>
> Tore



Tore,

I agree, the Christian Church did make concessions to the pagans in
order to facilitate integration and conversion. E.g. the old Saxon
Heliand certainly made Christ look more appealing to a Saxon warrior
than the original bible would have been. In general many Christian
feasts are organised around old pagan feasts and incorporate and
Christianise pagan rituals.

Dirk



>
>
>
> >  >
> >"> These things all refer to a handful of bishops and noblemen,
but
> >do not reflect the beliefs, inner convictions or practices of the
> >Goths on the whole.
> >
> >What evidence exists that they would have other "beliefs, inner
> >convictions or practices" than those inspired by Christianity? I
have
> >never seen any evidence that undermines the Goths' Christianity.
> >
> >   "Also, side by side with the Christian imagery on Ostrogothic
> >spangenhelms and other ornaments are animals, hunting scenes and
> >other symbols which defy a Christian interpretation.
> >
> >Decorative art has always shown imagry which is difficult or
> >impossible to trace to a religious source. It does not seem
advisable
> >to attach religious significance to scenes from daily life,
> >especially when no clear religious symbols are present.
> >
> >
> >   "As you know, evidence for the religion of the common people is
> >very, very slim.  However, if the many detailed reports of
surviving
> >pagan practices from from 5th-7th century Visigothic Spain are any
> >indication, then it becomes clear that paganism did indeed survive
> >for much longer.
> >
> >Why would the common people have a different religion than the
nobles?
> >Did you not say that the nobles were the ones who chose to remain
> >pagan? Please clarify. What "detailed reports of surviving pagan
> >practices" are you talking about besides those of Stephen McKenna?
> >
> >>  In _Paganism and Pagan Survivals in Spain up to the Fall of the
> >Visigothic Kingdom_ Stephen McKenna describes some aspects of
heathen
> >worship, magic and customs of the Visigoths.
> >
> >He does describe some aspects, but neglects to cite his sources,
> >leading many critics to describe his work as "fantasy literature".
> >
> >McKenna states that the rank and file of the Goths remained pagan
for
> >the most part because Arians did not have as much of a problem
with
> >heathenism as Catholics, and they did not make any substantial
> >efforts to weed out the old religion in the 5th century.
> >
> >What evidence is there for this assertion? I have never seen any
> >evidence that Arians viewed pagans very differently than
Catholics.
> >In the face of the evidence, I am forced to conclude that there
were
> >no Gothic pagans to weed out in the 5th century.
> >>
> >>  Spanish bishops said that "throughout almost the whole of
Spain and
> >Gaul the sacrilege of idolatry has become deeply rooted." Martin
of
> >Braga mentions that ignorance is the cause of people continuing to
> >worship the pagan gods.
> >
> >How does this relate to Goths? Martin of Braga does not appear to
> >have at ant time specifically charged Goths with this ignorance.
> >
> >  The autobiography of Valerius tells about the unbecoming songs
and
> >dances performed at a meeting of pagans in the forest at night,
and
> >of some pagans who worshipped idols on the top of a mountain. The
> >later law codes demonstrate that heathen temples and sacrifices
> >continued as a feature of Visigothic Spain. Pagan temples and
idols
> >continued to be prevalent up to at least 641.
> >
> >Valerius does not describe the country's pagan inhabitants as
Goths.
> >
> >  In the later years of the kingdom, the Visigoths are reported to
> >have worshipped fountains, trees and stones, which was prominent
> >enough to be considered a serious problem at the council of
Toledo in
> >693.  It is also worth noting that the old pagan burial practices
> >survived in Visigothic Spain until the conversion to Catholicism.
> >
> >What did these pagan burial practices consist of? I would describe
> >these burial practices as Christian or Arian. That is how I
described
> >them in my recent article on Gothic burial customs in Spain.
> >>
> >>  If the Goths as a whole had sincerely converted to
Christianity by
> >the end of the 5th century, none of these reports would exist.
> >
> >I know of no reports specifically charging Goths with paganism.
All
> >of the reports which I have seen level the charge of paganism
against
> >other groups than the Goths, who are always described as
Christians.
> >The burial customs of Visigothic Spain, which I have investigated
at
> >length, are clearly Christian. While I understand your point of
view,
> >I want to see some hard evidence before I conclude that the Arians
> >were somehow less Christian than the Catholics.
> >
> >Vernon Peberty
> >
>
>
> --


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