[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

Hi Albareik,

you provide a number of good arguments. However, I agree with the
answers provided by other members. Firstly, while images like a
cross on a Gothic helmet or the inscription 'Daniel the Prophet' on
some warrior belt buckles no doubt had religious significance to the
wearer, it is unclear whether other images of undertermined origin
were pagan or just ornamental or traditional. Secondly, priests and
bishops have often complained about their flogs following pagan
rituals. Thus, in my area a bishop complained in the 18th century
that the locals would prefer to go to pagan bon-fires and other
pagan activities rather than attend church services etc. In reality
those reportedly pagan rituals were empty of any religious
significance. They once have been real pagan rituals, but over 1000
years after the advent of Christianity in the region they had just
become folk customs. I suppose on the back of those reports, priests
and bishops could claim more resources for missionary work etc. I
suppose it was similar in Visigothic Spain. People were still fond
of old traditional customs, but whether they still held deep
religious meaning or testify to a latent paganism among Visigoths is
not at all certain. I think some 300 years after conversion these
rituals were realy just folk customs.

cheers
Dirk







--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "AElfric <amali at s...>" <amali at s...>
wrote:
> <<What evidence exists that they would have other "beliefs,
inner=20
> convictions or practices" than those inspired by Christianity? I
have
> never seen any evidence that undermines the Goths' Christianity.>>
>
> If you feel you cannot rely on McKenna, then see E.A. Thompson
_The
> Goths in Spain_, Clarendon Press, 1969, pages 54-56 and 308-310.
The
> pagan practices were mentioned in the law of Alaric II and at the
3rd
> council of Toledo.
>
> <<Why would the common people have a different religion than the
> nobles?>>
>
> Because people don't always agree with or obey their authorities,
as
> history has often shown.  This conflict can even be seen among the
> Goths: _The Passion of St Saba_ demonstrates that on the villiage
> level, there could be a lack of cooperation with the adminstration
> concerning religious matters.
>
> <<Did you not say that the nobles were the ones who chose to remain
> pagan? Please clarify.>>
>
> That was actually a quote from Burns, who seems to think that
pagan
> imagery present on ornaments that could have only belonged to the
> nobles indicates a survival of paganism among the upper classes.
> That seems probable if the upper classes were indeed insincere
about
> their Christianity.
>
> <<He does describe some aspects, but neglects to cite his sources,
> leading many critics to describe his work as "fantasy
literature".>>
>
> Yes, not citing sources does indeed greatly reduce the strength of
an
> argument.  You yourself have yet to cite a single source or
present a
> single shred of evidence in this discussion to support your
> assertions.
>
> <<<<<<McKenna states that the rank and file of the Goths remained
> pagan for the most part because Arians did not have as much of a
> problem with heathenism as Catholics, and they did not make any
> substantial efforts to weed out the old religion in the 5th
century.
> >>>>>>>
>
> <<What evidence is there for this assertion? I have never seen any
> evidence that Arians viewed pagans very differently than
Catholics.
> In the face of the evidence, I am forced to conclude that there
were
> no Gothic pagans to weed out in the 5th century.>>
>
> To quote Thompson, that "the 3rd council of Toledo and the synod
of
> Narbonne instructed Gothic officials to inquire into pagan
practices
> shows that some at least of these practices could be found among
the
> Goths, for these officials had no jurisdiction over Romans at this
> date," _The Goths in Spain_, 55-56.
>
> <<What did these pagan burial practices consist of? I would
describe
> these burial practices as Christian or Arian. That is how I
described
> them in my recent article on Gothic burial customs in Spain.
> I know of no reports specifically charging Goths with paganism.
All
> of the reports which I have seen level the charge of paganism
against
> other groups than the Goths, who are always described as
Christians.
> The burial customs of Visigothic Spain, which I have investigated
at
> length, are clearly Christian. While I understand your point of
view,
> I want to see some hard evidence before I conclude that the Arians
> were somehow less Christian than the Catholics.>>
>
> Again to quote Thompson, "The conversion to Catholicism marks the
> ends of the custom of burying goods along with the dead and marks
the
> dissapearance of the traditional Gothic form of dress" (109).
> Burying goods with the dead cannot, of course, be seen as a custom
> originating in Arianism, but rather, the Goths had buried goods
with
> the dead for centuries back into their pagan past when they first
> appear archeologically as the Wielbark culture.  The Goths were a
> Germanic people, and this was a pagan Germanic custom that
survived
> in Visigothic Spain until the conversion to Catholicism.
>
> Albareiks


You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/