[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[Einar Gunnar Birgisson <einarbirg@yahoo.com>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>" 
<dirk at s...> wrote:
> 
Hi Dirk
I think Albareik has presented very good and convincing arguments 
and done so in a balanced manner. I am neither pagan nor Christian 
and I dont care if the Goths in the period in question were devoted 
Christians or not. I feel that the situation was a little bit more 
complicated than some will have us to believe and therefore welcome 
the balanced account of Albareiks and his arguments.
After following the discussion I can see nothing against the idea to 
assume it as a possibility that the pagan Heruli who migrated to 
Scandinavia in the beginning of the the 6th century could have been 
carriers of ancient Gothic pagan traditions to some degree.

Regarding Gothic Christianity! Can we learn anything from the 
present! In my country (Iceland) Christianity is the State religion 
and there are churches spread all over the country. Even so then 
only a small minority of the nation is devoted Christians. And these 
devoted Christians are divided in many groups, each following their 
own doctrine. According to research and statistics then the majority 
of people up here dont believe in the Christian doctrine (which in 
many cases they have no knowledge of) but believe in the law of 
karma, being reborn, believe in elves, other dimensions or simply 
are atheists. Though most agree there might be some higher spiritual 
beings around somewhere.
The religious minority though turns a blind eye to this and wants to 
picture the nation as devoted Christians.
Not long ago the Church was a powerful authority in society. Did 
people have a choice! Regarding the Goths, was it different back 
then!

Excuse me but I have a few words on Ynglingasaga which I have 
compared to the account of Procopius (in letter 6762). It seems to 
be accepted that Ynglingasaga is to a large degree based on the now 
lost Skjoldungasaga. It is naturally not known how much. According 
to N.C.Lukman then the Skjoldungs were the Heruli. Lukman's fine and 
extensive research has caused much controversy. The prominent 
Norwegian scholar Claus Krag does accept Lukman's conclusions as I 
have pointed out before. Therefore there is a reason to believe that 
a part of the Heruli history might be found in Ynglingasaga (all 
mixed up naturally). Naturally the attension turns to the arrival of 
the southern tribe into the Mälar valley described in Ynglingasaga.
I wanted to add this info but not start a thread as it is 
unappropriate on this list and I have nothing more to add at the 
moment.

Best regards Einar.
> 

> Hi Albareik,
> 
> you provide a number of good arguments. However, I agree with the 
> answers provided by other members. Firstly, while images like a 
> cross on a Gothic helmet or the inscription 'Daniel the Prophet' 
on 
> some warrior belt buckles no doubt had religious significance to 
the 
> wearer, it is unclear whether other images of undertermined origin 
> were pagan or just ornamental or traditional. Secondly, priests 
and 
> bishops have often complained about their flogs following pagan 
> rituals. Thus, in my area a bishop complained in the 18th century 
> that the locals would prefer to go to pagan bon-fires and other 
> pagan activities rather than attend church services etc. In 
reality 
> those reportedly pagan rituals were empty of any religious 
> significance. They once have been real pagan rituals, but over 
1000 
> years after the advent of Christianity in the region they had just 
> become folk customs. I suppose on the back of those reports, 
priests 
> and bishops could claim more resources for missionary work etc. I 
> suppose it was similar in Visigothic Spain. People were still fond 
> of old traditional customs, but whether they still held deep 
> religious meaning or testify to a latent paganism among Visigoths 
is 
> not at all certain. I think some 300 years after conversion these 
> rituals were realy just folk customs.
> 
> cheers
> Dirk
> 
> 





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