[gothic-l] Re: "Eruli", "Goths", "Danes" and wherefrom the runes

[Troels Brandt <trbrandt@post9.tele.dk>]

Hi Dirk

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
<dirk at s...> wrote:
>
> that is always the problem with those sources. What to believe and
> what not to believe. Procopius clearly describes the surviving
Heruls
> as a very delapidated people. The fact that their kingdom was
> definitely destroyed once and for all. The fact that they were
unable
> to set up a new kingdom. The fact that they were scattered all over
> the region all seems to support Procopius' report in my view. Or to
> you your argument. There is no reason for Procopius to lie about
> starvation, abuse and decimation of the Heruls after the defeat of
> 508/9.  However, you are quite right the scattered survivors were
> able to play important roles under whatever overlordship they ended
> up.

And from your answer to Tore:
> The remaining Heruls, who had survived the
> battle and starvation, where now mistreated, robbed
> and raped and eventually attacked by the Gepids.
> Their second choice of residence had also turned out
> to be a failure.

The reporter of his own time, Procopius, was not a reliable source
when it came to 30 years old events and figures - but we do not
disagree that these Heruls were down and vulnerable among the people
they had earlier terrorized. This is obvious. But please notice, that
the Scandinavian Heruls may have left them before they went south
along the Danube, and please notice, that in spite of another
disasterous defeat later by Anastasius these Illyrian Heruls were an
important element in the Roman army at the time of Procopius. However
reading your own text above we obviously agree that the sources are
uncertain - and consequently our conclusions are so too.

The only unsolved problem regarding this discussion is our missing
Silinga-source.


> > Claiming later acceptance and important roles among the Lombards,
> the
> > Ostrogoths, the Bavarians and the Roman army it must be difficult
> for
> > you to deny that the Heruls probably played a major role at the
> place
> > where their southern kinsmen had to call for new candidates of
> royal
> > blood - Scandinavia. This was as earlier thoroughly discussed the
> > place where the two contemperary historians, Jordanes and
> Procopius,
> > placed Herulian settlements.

>
> The Jordanes quote is, according to Hachmann and Svennung
problematic
> if I remember correctly. Both authors regarded it as later addition
> to a list of Scandinavian tribal names in order to strenghten and
> emphasis the alliance between the Danube Heruls and the Ostrogoths.

They used the usual "addition"-escape in a time when other scholars
believed in a Scandinavian origin of the Heruls. Now this has been
changed to recent event instead - even accepted by Goffart.

Merry Christmas
Troels




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