[gothic-l] Re: Tracing the Eruli

[Troels Brandt <trbrandt@post9.tele.dk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
>
>  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin
> <dirk at s...>"
> > <dirk at s...> wrote:
>
> I noted earlier, that when mittle Danubian Germanics
> from Moravia and
> Bohemia (exactly the same region were the Moravian
> Heruls lived)
> migrated to modern south west Germany in the late 5th
> early 6th
> century, they left a clear and unmistakable
> archaeological record of
> their migration and their presence. Until such a
> record is found in
> Scandianvia I remain sceptical about any significant
> migration of
> Danube-Germanic cultures to there.
>
> *****GK: Apparently (pace Mahomedov)the East European
> Eruli cannot be clearly identified except as being a
> part of the "Germanic" component of the Chernyakhiv
> culture. In order to prove "archaeologically" that the
> East Eruli migrated to Moravia in the mid-5th century,
> we need to have clearcut evidence that the material
> culture of this area has verifiable links (not just
> superficial similarities) to the Chernyakhiv culture.
> Does such evidence exist? I know that Tejral and
> others have done work here but don't remember that in
> previous discussions the point I am asking about was
> made. Perhaps it was, but this has slipped my mind for
> the moment.==== Now let us assume (this argument is ad
> hoc and will be cancelled if a convincing answer is
> made to the above), that there is no conclusive
> archaeological proof of a linkage between the material
> culture of Gothic Ukraine and Erulian Moravia. This
> would suggest that the Eruli changed "culture"
> relatively quickly. In that case the search for
> material evidence of their movement to Scandinavia
> becomes less significant and certainly no basis for
> scepticism with respect to attestations in the
> historical sources. We are after all discussing the
> migration of ERULI, not of "Danube-Germanic
> cultures".*******

I am glad to see that you and Vladimir found new angles in the
eternal discussion I initiated mentioning Goffart to Dirk.

I agree that the above is the situation for the moment. This is also
confirmed by the fact that the Heruls are not archaeologically
identified in the area of Singidunum (Alexander Kiss), though we are
sure that an important group moved from Moravia to Dacia Ripensis and
Singidunum.

One reason could be that they really were a new people formed as a
mix of two or more people in the border areas of the Chernyakhiv
Culture - as the ethymology of Ablasisus could indicate. The elements
could as example be Goths, Scandinavian Gauts, Harii, Eutes, Alans or
Bosporanians. If they in the following centuries had to move several
times and were forced to follow Ostrogoths, Huns and Romans they
probably got very few characteristics of their own. They even
disappeared from history in the period they followed the Huns.

Maybe they were kept together by the ancestor cult of a dynasty of
warrior kings like Gaut - as Ingemar has described the Goths. When
groups of Heruls joined another people at the Continent in the 6th
century these groups converted to Christianity or Arianism and
disappeared as a separate people within 50 years - except rebellions
like the Scandinavian Datius.

Troels


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