[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity - heathen point of view

[Tore Gannholm]

I have earlier pointed out that it is very difficult to differentiate
between heathen and christian as most of the christian customs were
before they became christian customs heathen pagan customs according
to the christian way of thinking.

Take such a simple example as
pontifex maximus , highest priest of Roman religion and official head
of the college of pontifices. As the chief administrator of religious
affairs he regulated the conduct of religious ceremonies, consecrated
temples and other holy places, and controlled the calendar. During
the time of the empire, and until Christianity became firmly
established, the emperor was designated pontifex maximus. After the
supremacy of Christianity, the popes assumed the title.

It was not until 376 AD that the bishop of Rome Demasus took the old
Roman title Pontifex Maximus.

  The last official 'emperor' of the Roman Empire and the first
'pontiff' of the so-called 'holy' Roman Empire was Constantine, who
also served as the Supreme Pontiff or PONTIFEX MAXIMUS of the Babylon
Mystery Society, as was the tradition of most Roman Emperors. The
Pontifex Maximus is supposed to be an unbroken line of Babylon
Mystery Cult leaders who trace their line all the way back to
Nimrod's Babylon. The present-day Pontifex Maximus positions are
concealed from the general public for obvious reasons

In 509 BC when the monarchy was abolished, the Pontifex Maximus took
over the king's religious duties. The Pontifex Maximus was the chief
priest of the Roman state religion and the high priest for the board
of the Pontifices, or priests. The Rex Sacrorum ("sacred king")
chaired the board, but still answered to the Pontifex Maximus. The
board held their meetings in the Roman Forum in the Regia, the home
of the Pontifex Maximus. The Pontifex Maximus took auspices and read
omens. One of his primary duties was creating the calendar. This
meant setting the dies fasti, or days for public meetings and
administering justice, and the dies nefasti, national holidays for
religious celebrations. The Pontifex Maximus was also in charge of
the cult of Vesta. He selected the Vestal Virgins and was the the
only man allowed in the Atrium Vestae, the home of the Vestals.

In pre-Christian times, the Pontifex Maximus, the chief priest of the
Roman Republic, was a popularly elected post. It did not have much
political power, but brought with it great prestige and some
influence in matters like adoption and running ceremonies. Julius
Caesar got himself elected Pontifex Maximus in order to further his
political career, and it later became one of the standard titles of
the Roman emperors. When the Empire became Christian, the emperor's
dropped the title, and it was picked up by the popes. Many of the
customs associated with the papacy . are inherited from pagan Rome.
For example, Caesar used a lot of bribes to get the needed votes, a
tradition Catholic candidates for the position began to emulate
during the Medieval period.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The papacy (the pope, his authority and Curia Romana ) developed
slowly over the centuries. In the beginning, all bishops were
considered equal, with the bishop of Rome considered a little more
equal because the first bishop there had been Peter (chosen by Jesus
as the chief apostle). But a large number of capable bishops of Rome
gradually turned the See of Peter into the supreme religious leader
of the Roman Catholic church. Much credit must be given to the
Moslems, who wiped out the North African Christian church (in the 7th
century) and greatly diminished the number of Byzantine catholics
(from the 7th to 15th centuries). These were the two major
competitors for supreme authority in the church, or at least
resistance to Roman supremacy.


The question is whether this is a christian or pagan custom.

Tore



>
>  > It has long been established that the Goths were Christians. In
>light of this fact, the responsibility for proving that they were
>anything other than fully Christian rests squarely on the shoulders
>of those who would advocate such views. I commend you for presenting
>sources that you feel support the view that the Goths were pagan, but
>do not believe these sources are sufficient to disprove the long
>established position that the Goths were Christians.
>>
>>  Vernon Peberty
>
>Yes they WERE Christians, but from what I can tell no one is saying
>that they weren't. The other guy seemed like he was talking more
>about minor leftover stuff from the past. It makes sense to me at
>least that the Goths could have had one or two heathen customs left
>that they picked up from other tribes or just had to start with.
>Still, they WERE devout Christians. From a Heathen point of view, the
>Goths are probably the LEAST interesting Germanic tribe. Few Heathens
>like myself are even interested in the Goths. I doubt if anyone at
>all is interested in whatever they believed before Christianity,
>especially because nothing at all is known about it. At the same time
>the Goths were Christians, a lot of other Germanic groups were close
>to 100% Heathen - these are the groups Heathens are interested in
>from a "religious" point of view, and especially the Norse. But the
>Goths ARE interesting, even to Heathens, from a LINGUISTIC point of
>view. It's interesting to see what their language was like - even if
>it's considered really deviant from normal Germanic - it's STILL old.
>They WERE the Christians, I don't disagree with you, but what's wrong
>with pointing out some Heathen influences if you happen see them?
>
>Just my thoughts,
>Edmund
>


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