[gothic-l] Re: Tracing the Eruli

[Troels Brandt <trbrandt@post9.tele.dk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> 
> --- "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at p...>"
> <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > In your reasoning you assume that I still believe
> > the Heruls lived at 
> > Tanais - and it may look so. However I have left
> > that generally 
> > accepted theory listening to you and others with
> > better knowledge 
> > about that region than we are used to. Mentioning
> > the border areas 
> > above my assumption was the Lower Dnepr (ON Danp)
> > region, and I also 
> > assume that they were fundamentally a "Germanic"
> > people joined by 
> > some Alans. This should survive Ockham's razor and
> > this people would 
> > be difficult to separate by archaeology from the
> > other Estgermanic 
> > and Sarmath/Alanic people following the Huns to
> > Central Europe.
> 
> *****GK: We know that the Chernyakhiv culture was
> polyethnic, and that under Hunnic pressure practically
> all Goths, Eruli, other "Germanics", Late Scythians,
> and Alans outmigrated in the period 375-450 (esp. in
> 430-450. The "mixture" at the points of arrival in the
> West could have been different from that at the point
> of departure from the East, so that it is not
> necessary to assume that the Alanic component of the
> Eruli existed from the very beginning. On the other
> hand it is also impossible to prove that it did not.

I agree - and an explanation of the name as a result of a 
Gothic/Alanic combination would never be more than an indication.

> We simply don't know with any certainty where the
> Eruli were located in the time of Ermanaric. *****

I agree - but a settlement close to the Bosporanian Kingdom and 
Crimea is the most probable location around 268 AD. Maybe even in a 
swampy area. 

How far against southeast do we find the Chernyakhiv settlements west 
of Dnepr and northwest of the steppes? The region of Krivoy Rog or of 
Kirovograd to mention some examples?    

 
> >(Troels) this Jordanes story [GK about the expulsion
> of the Eruli by the Dani]is a part of the
> > chapter generally 
> > regarded as written by Cassiodorus. The Scandinavian
> > king Roduulf at 
> > the court of Theodoric might be the source for this
> > information and 
> > the event may have taken place before the Heruls of
> > Procopius 
> > arrived.
> 
> ******GK: I stand to be corrected on this. I was
> working from memory and thought that Andreas Schwarcz
> in one of his postings (either here or on the Germanic
> list) had cited authorities claiming that the Erulian
> expulsion story had been added by Jordanes to the
> Cassiodorus text.******
> 

At Germanic List Andreas Schwarcz quoted Hoops RGA 84 quoting 
E.Wessén, but Wessén was not the only scholar to use this kind of 
escape. The sentence has always been difficult to interprete, and 
when the old theory was left, it was also difficult for the scholars 
to explain how Cassiodorus in 519 AD could tell that the Heruls going 
north after 509 already were expelled from their livingplaces up 
there. 

We have also discussed Roduulf as a source at Germanic List and here.

I would like Wessén to be right, because then Jordanes confirms 
Procopius as an independent contemporary source - but I am not sure.

Troels 



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