[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity and elves

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Einar Gunnar Birgisson
<einarbirg at y...>" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Einar Gunnar Birgisson
> > <einarbirg at y...>" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> > > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > Hi Dirk
> > > I think Albareik has presented very good and convincing
> arguments
> > > and done so in a balanced manner. I am neither pagan nor
> Christian
> > > and I dont care if the Goths in the period in question were
> devoted
> > > Christians or not. I feel that the situation was a little bit
> more
> > > complicated than some will have us to believe and therefore
> welcome
> > > the balanced account of Albareiks and his arguments.
> > > After following the discussion I can see nothing against the
> idea
> > to
> > > assume it as a possibility that the pagan Heruli who migrated
to
> > > Scandinavia in the beginning of the the 6th century could have
> been
> > > carriers of ancient Gothic pagan traditions to some degree.
> >
>
> > Hi Einar,
> >
> > if you are content to maintain a notion that lacks any evidence,
> you
> > can certainly maintain this view. But you should also consider
the
> > arguement that were brought forward on the other side of the
> debate.
> >
> >#### Hi Dirk
>    I feel that some who have opposed the  arguments of Albareiks
> have presented their arguments (or often rather their opinion
> without arguments)in a rather unbalanced and a not so neutral
> manner. The information Ingemar has presented for us has been
> supporting Albareiks arguments. In my view then Albareiks arguments
> stand mostly unchallenged.###



Hi Einar,

you will have to mention the arguments which you found convincing and
which you did not found convincing. Albareiks main arguments were, if
I remember correctly:

1. Sources of the 7th century still complain of pagan practices among
Goths.

2. Some of the imagery on Gothic artefacts of the Christian period
may have a pagan origin.



With regards to argument 1., I and others stated that we cannot
assess the sincerity of relgious conviction on an individual basis.
Yet, Goths (Ostrogoths and Visigoths) left many tangible evidence of
their Christianity in the late 5th and 6th century (Churches,
symbolism, customs, etc), while they left no real evidence of pagan
rituals. Has has been shown, complains by priests and bishops about
pagan customs of their flog continued for many centuries and related
mostly to non-Christian folk traditions, which were however empty of
pagan religious significant.

As for argument 2., there is no real way of knowing if images that
were perpetuated into the late 5th and 6th century were of real pagan
religious significance. They may just represent traditional
ornaments. Yet, the application of crosses to Gothic Spangenhelms,
was in my view a sign that the wearer was a Christian and wanted to
be seen as such. Also, the Goths invented the tradition of placing a
large cross on their coins around the neck of the ruler. This cross
was likely part of the Gothic royal treasure. In addition, peoples
like the Thuringians, partly the Alamannians and partly the Bavarians
were likely Christianised through the efforts of the Gothic
missionaries.

How, you can conclude from this that the Goths were still largely
pagans in Italy and Spain is impossible for me to see. What is even
more obscure is how you want to argue from this that the Heruls
continued Gothic pagan traditions. We don't even know what the Heruls
believed in and have only a very vague idea about the pagan religion
of the earlier Goths.

Dirk



PS   Somebody had earlier asked what 'elves' are. As far as I know,
elves are little men with pointed ears, typically dressed in green.
One might largely group them with dwarfs, gnoms, trolls, fairies and
other sprits of the forest;-)





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