[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity and elves

[Einar Gunnar Birgisson <einarbirg@yahoo.com>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>" 
<dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Einar Gunnar Birgisson 
> <einarbirg at y...>" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>" 
> > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Einar Gunnar Birgisson 
> > > <einarbirg at y...>" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin 
<dirk at s...>" 
> > > > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > 
>     ####### Hi Dirk
  Nice to have you back. Thanks for your letter. I see there are no 
hard feelings around because of this discussion about the religion 
of the Goths. 
It would be rather boring for everybody if I were to repeat the 
arguments of mainly Albareiks. I have already expressed my views. I 
have felt that I am standing on the sidelines in this debate, and I 
think that others, presumably Albareiks and Ingemar would be more 
competent to evaluate your arguments. What ever the outcome of the 
debate will be, I still feel that it is safe to assume it as a 
possibility that the Heruli could possibly have been carriers of 
some Gothic pagan traditions to Scandinavia. As for Palsson's 
hypotheses about Gothic traditions found expressed in the Edda's and 
Saga's, I am not so familar with his exact arguments, but he worked 
in the realm of myths and symbolism.
***** The discussion between Vladimir, George and Troels is very 
interesting. New angles have been brought up. I would though be 
reluctant to believe the Heruli migrating to Scandinavia were tens 
of thousands. I think that Wolfram has estimated something like 3 
thousands (probably a careful evaluation). I would estimate the 
number to be something like 3-8 thousands. Naturally I find it 
interesting when George says that the Heruli had a kind of "anti-
monarchic" disposition etc.. because of the peculiar situation in 
the settlement period of Iceland (and later still). The ruling clans 
in the country, being powerful enough to erect a kingship, did not 
do so but established instead a rule of 36 priest-chieftains.*****
Regarding the small inserted chapter here below then according to my 
memory then Andreas was quite sure. His philological analysis was 
convincing and he came to the conclusion that the event in question 
could be dated after the arrival of the Heruli to Scandinavia. I 
personally think that this happened sometime before the Heruli 
migrated to the Mälar valley, and could have been the reason for 
their arrival there. That is they were driven eastward by the Dani.

Best regards Einar######


****""At Germanic List Andreas Schwarcz quoted Hoops RGA 84 quoting 
E.Wessén, but Wessén was not the only scholar to use this kind of 
escape. The sentence has always been difficult to interprete, and 
when the old theory was left, it was also difficult for the scholars 
to explain how Cassiodorus in 519 AD could tell that the Heruls 
going 
north after 509 already were expelled from their livingplaces up 
there. 

We have also discussed Roduulf as a source at Germanic List and here.

I would like Wessén to be right, because then Jordanes confirms 
Procopius as an independent contemporary source - but I am not sure.

Troels"" ***********


> Hi Einar,
> 
> you will have to mention the arguments which you found convincing 
and 
> which you did not found convincing. Albareiks main arguments were, 
if 
> I remember correctly:
> 
> 1. Sources of the 7th century still complain of pagan practices 
among 
> Goths. 
> 
> 2. Some of the imagery on Gothic artefacts of the Christian period 
> may have a pagan origin. 
> 
> 
> 
> With regards to argument 1., I and others stated that we cannot 
> assess the sincerity of relgious conviction on an individual 
basis. 
> Yet, Goths (Ostrogoths and Visigoths) left many tangible evidence 
of 
> their Christianity in the late 5th and 6th century (Churches, 
> symbolism, customs, etc), while they left no real evidence of 
pagan 
> rituals. Has has been shown, complains by priests and bishops 
about 
> pagan customs of their flog continued for many centuries and 
related 
> mostly to non-Christian folk traditions, which were however empty 
of 
> pagan religious significant. 
> 
> As for argument 2., there is no real way of knowing if images that 
> were perpetuated into the late 5th and 6th century were of real 
pagan 
> religious significance. They may just represent traditional 
> ornaments. Yet, the application of crosses to Gothic Spangenhelms, 
> was in my view a sign that the wearer was a Christian and wanted 
to 
> be seen as such. Also, the Goths invented the tradition of placing 
a 
> large cross on their coins around the neck of the ruler. This 
cross 
> was likely part of the Gothic royal treasure. In addition, peoples 
> like the Thuringians, partly the Alamannians and partly the 
Bavarians 
> were likely Christianised through the efforts of the Gothic 
> missionaries. 
>  
> How, you can conclude from this that the Goths were still largely 
> pagans in Italy and Spain is impossible for me to see. What is 
even 
> more obscure is how you want to argue from this that the Heruls 
> continued Gothic pagan traditions. We don't even know what the 
Heruls 
> believed in and have only a very vague idea about the pagan 
religion 
> of the earlier Goths. 
> 
> Dirk 
> 
> 
> 
> PS   Somebody had earlier asked what 'elves' are. As far as I 
know, 
> elves are little men with pointed ears, typically dressed in 
green. 
> One might largely group them with dwarfs, gnoms, trolls, fairies 
and 
> other sprits of the forest;-)


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