[gothic-l] Re: Jordanes and the Scandinavian Eruli

[george knysh]

--- "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at post9.tele.dk>"
<trbrandt at post9.tele.dk> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> >  "Suetidi, cogniti in hac gente reliquis corpore
> > eminentiores: quamvis et Dani, ex ipsorum stirpe
> > progressi, Herulos propriis sedibus expulerunt,
> qui
> > inter omnes Scandiae nationes nomen sibi ob nimia
> > proceritate affectant praecipuum."
> >
> > If the view that the allusion to the expulsion of
> the
> > Eruli by the Danes is an addition by Jordanes to
> the
> > text of Cassiodorus, and does not refer to some
> > mid-3rd century event as previously thought, then
> the
> > simplest interpretation is to see here a reference
> to
> > an event posterior to the Procopian tale of the
> > "summoning of a king from Thule" by the Illyrian
> > Eruli. This summoning is usually dated as of 548
> AD.
> > So the catastrophic termination of the Erulian
> state
> > in Scandinavia (located between the Danes and the
> > Gauts) may correspondingly be dated to the period
> > 548-551 AD. There are other possible views of
> course,
> > but they are all less probable that this simplest
> of
> > correlations between Jordanes and Procopius. And
> if
> > one must be sceptical, I prefer being sceptical
> about
> > less probable notions than about more probable
> ones.
>
>(Troels) This is of course one out of several
theoretical
> possibilities, but I
> am not aware of any archaeological, historical or
> mythical support of
> this interpretation.

******GK: I think the historical interpretation is
sound enough as I've put it, and both archaeology and
myth are not incompatible with it.*****
>
> I do not agree, that your suggestion is the most
> simple correlation.
> He used "sedibus expulerunt" which is generally
> translated as an
> expulsion from certain settlements and not a
> termination of a
> kingdom.

*****GK: Not "sedibus expulerunt" but "PROPRIIS
sedibus expulerunt", which means that the Eruli lost
all the territory previously "proper" to them. And
thus their state in the area ended. It was joined to
the dominions of the Dani. The problem now would be to
trace the fate of the "expelled".******

 Actually Procopius used the word "tote" -
> also indicating
> that the Heruls may have moved between their arrival
> and the reports
> following Datius back to Procopius(earlier discussed
> with Andreas at
> Germanic List). Procopius used a lot of actual
> information about the
> Heruls, while Jordanes only mentioned the Heruls a
> few times in the
> past except for this short sentence.

******GK: The end of their state in the north must
have been quite an important event. As far as I know
this is the only military conflict WITHIN SCANDINAVIA
mentioned by either Jordanes or Procopius.*****

 There is no
> reason why Jordanes
> should be better informed than Procopius who even
> finalised his books
> a year later than Jordanes.

*****GK: I disagree. Jordanes was at least partly of
Gothic origin, and infinitely better disposed towards
things Germanic than the Byzantine Procopius. The
latter certainly finalized his work a little later
than Jordanes, but would not necessarily have thought
it important to bring his earlier notes up to date
just to inform his public about events in Scandinavia
which he did not deem consequential for his purposes.
He had the same contemptuously dismissal attitude
about Slavs. The only ones which really interested him
were those which were at the border.******

 In that case you have to
> fall back on
> different motives, which is not the most simple
> correlation.
>
> Therefore I do not see any reason to limit the
> period of Jordanes'
> event to 548-51 AD - if this was Jordanes' own
> sentence.

******GK: Given the points I made above, I don't think
your conclusion is the simplest explanation of
Procopius+ Jordanes, and continue to hold that the
most economical interpretation of their texts is the
view that the Erulian state in Sweden was terminated
by the Dani ca. 550 AD.*******


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