[gothic-l] Re: Jordanes and the Scandinavian Eruli

[Tore Gannholm]

>
>*****GK: Not "sedibus expulerunt" but "PROPRIIS
>sedibus expulerunt", which means that the Eruli lost
>all the territory previously "proper" to them. And
>thus their state in the area ended. It was joined to
>the dominions of the Dani. The problem now would be to
>trace the fate of the "expelled".******
>
>  Actually Procopius used the word "tote" -
>>  also indicating
>>  that the Heruls may have moved between their arrival
>>  and the reports
>>  following Datius back to Procopius(earlier discussed
>  > with Andreas at
>  > Germanic List). Procopius used a lot of actual
>  > information about the
>  > Heruls, while Jordanes only mentioned the Heruls a
>  > few times in the
>  > past except for this short sentence.
>
>******GK: The end of their state in the north must
>have been quite an important event. As far as I know
>this is the only military conflict WITHIN SCANDINAVIA
>mentioned by either Jordanes or Procopius.*****
>
>  There is no
>>  reason why Jordanes
>>  should be better informed than Procopius who even
>>  finalised his books
>>  a year later than Jordanes.
>
>*****GK: I disagree. Jordanes was at least partly of
>Gothic origin, and infinitely better disposed towards
>things Germanic than the Byzantine Procopius. The
>latter certainly finalized his work a little later
>than Jordanes, but would not necessarily have thought
>it important to bring his earlier notes up to date
>just to inform his public about events in Scandinavia
>which he did not deem consequential for his purposes.
>He had the same contemptuously dismissal attitude
>about Slavs. The only ones which really interested him
>were those which were at the border.******
>
>  In that case you have to
>>  fall back on
>>  different motives, which is not the most simple
>>  correlation.
>>
>>  Therefore I do not see any reason to limit the
>>  period of Jordanes'
>>  event to 548-51 AD - if this was Jordanes' own
>>  sentence.
>
>******GK: Given the points I made above, I don't think
>your conclusion is the simplest explanation of
>Procopius+ Jordanes, and continue to hold that the
>most economical interpretation of their texts is the
>view that the Erulian state in Sweden was terminated
>by the Dani ca. 550 AD.*******

George,
There is something in what you say.

Beowulf comes handy here with the wars between the Svear and Gotlanders.

The Ynglinga kings (what we think were the Heruli) were actually 
expelled and moved to Värmland and further to Norway.

I think this thread needs a further investigation.

When Jordanes talks about Herulis and Danis perhaps it could be 
interpreted as the ruling dynasty only.

Tore



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