[gothic-l] Re: Jordanes and the Scandinavian Eruli

[george knysh]

Hi Troels! The fact that I disagree with you on a few
points doesn't derogate from the marvelous compilative
and interpretive job you've done on your website. I
don't consider myself a great expert on either the
Goths and the Eruli, but I am quite interested in them
because of the connection with Eastern Europe. If I
happen to be wrong on this or that point (like for
instance ny earlier belief that the Eruli were
expelled from Scandinavia by the Dani in the mid-3rd
c. which I have now abandoned after the explanations
offered on the list)it certainly isn't the end of the
world. Errare humanum est. And I appreciate the many
new insights garnered here.

--- "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at post9.tele.dk>"
<trbrandt at post9.tele.dk> wrote:

> > GK: The end of their state in the north must
> > have been quite an important event. As far as I
> know
> > this is the only military conflict WITHIN
> SCANDINAVIA
> > mentioned by either Jordanes or Procopius.
>
> Agree, but neither do we know any other people
> leaving the sphere of
> the Romans to settle in Scandinavia.

*****GK: Nothing as "massive" certainly. Is there not
some evidence available for such migrations on an
individual basis or by small groups? Like mercenaries,
or others, going home?*****

 This could even
> be an event
> connected with the escape of Roduulf to the court of
> Theodorich -
> making it very relevant to be mentioned in this way
> and in this
> chapter of Getica - with Roduulf as the source
> before 519 AD.

*****GK: Jordanes: "sunt quamquam et horum positura
Grannii, Augandxi, Eunixi, Taetel, Rugi, Arochi,
Rauii, quibus non ante multos annos Roduulf rex fuit,
qui contempto proprio regno ad Theodorici Gothorum
regis gremio convolavit et, ut desiderabat, invenit,
hae itaque gentes, Germanis corpore et animo
grandiores, pugnabant beluina saevitia."  How would
you relate the departure of Roduulf from his kingdom
with the expulsion of the Eruli by the Dani?*****

>
> > > There is no
> > > reason why Jordanes
> > > should be better informed than Procopius who
> even
> > > finalised his books
> > > a year later than Jordanes.
> >
> > *****GK: I disagree. Jordanes was at least partly
> of
> > Gothic origin, and infinitely better disposed
> towards
> > things Germanic than the Byzantine Procopius. The
> > latter certainly finalized his work a little later
> > than Jordanes, but would not necessarily have
> thought
> > it important to bring his earlier notes up to date
> > just to inform his public about events in
> Scandinavia
> > which he did not deem consequential for his
> purposes.
> > He had the same contemptuously dismissal attitude
> > about Slavs. The only ones which really interested
> him
> > were those which were at the border.******
>
> They were both supposed to write in Constantinople -
> but Procopius
> closer to court and army. Jordanes wrote about the
> past of Goths and
> Procopius was primarily interested in contemporary
> details of the
> Roman army and the court of Justinian. Even if the
> Heruls had been
> Goths 300 years earlier and they maybe had been
> allied with Theodoric
> 40 years earlier, the Heruls had no importance to
> the Goths in the
> 540'ies - especially not the Scandinavian Heruls.
> The argument has
> been used that Jordanes wanted to show that these
> barbarians could
> not be sent back, but if the sentence had this
> contemporary purpose,
> he forgot to tell that this was their origin - and
> neither did
> Procopius. Opposite was the conflict very "hot"
> between the Romans,
> the Herulian soldiers in the Roman army and the
> group following the
> Scandinavian Datius/Aordus, when our authors
> finished their books,
> making it much more relevant for Procopius to
> mention the destruction
> of the homebase of the Roman enemy Datius - if this
> was the case -
> than to suppress an already wellknown information of
> political
> reasons opposite Jordanes'.

*****GK: Jordanes was, I obviously agree, primarily
but not exclusively oriented towards the Goths. He
wrote about many Germanic peoples. And he mentioned
events both long past and fairly recent.I don't see
why he mightn't be interested in the Scandinavian
Eruli at a time when their political society was
destroyed by the Dani. It was important recent news
from Scandinavia which he was just there and then
describing as the vagina nationum. Let's say that he
had a soft spot for the northerners, unlike
Procopius.******

>(Troels) I am not sure there was a real Herulian
state, when
> Datius left in
> the 540'ies. I think their members of royal blood
> still had a
> dominating role in the society since a member was
> worth going more
> than 2*1100 km for, but their followers were
> probably in the middle
> of an integration-proces with a Scandinavian people,

****GK: Which one? If so wouldn't the king of that
people have been involved in the story? I don't think
it is essential for a political society to be
independent through a king. The Eruli of the south
didn't need one for a long time.*****

> since they never
> showed up in myths and archaeology. This happened
> north of the Dani
> since the envoy for a new king was considerably
> delayed as they had
> to go back to the Heruls due to the death of their
> first candidate at
> the Dani. There was no hostility at that time since
> they did not
> avoid the Dani.
>
> If Jordanes' event took place 509-551 AD the first
> settlements of the
> Heruls should be found in the wooded borderareas
> between Dani and
> Gautoi.

*****GK: Is the issue of the border between these
groups for the period 510ss definitively settled?*****

 Archaeological places like Vennebo and
> Ingelstad are situated
> in this region, but to my knowledge there are no
> significant
> Eastgermanic finds from around 500 AD in the region
> (but ErilaR-
> inscriptions nearby) though earlier Swedish
> archaeologists worked
> eagerly with a similar theory based on other reasons
> than Jordanes -
> as presented some years ago by Bertil at this list.
> This could
> indicate an early expulsion.
>
> Troels
>
>



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