[gothic-l] Re: Jordanes and the Scandinavian Eruli

[Troels Brandt <trbrandt@post9.tele.dk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> Hi Troels! The fact that I disagree with you on a few
> points doesn't derogate from the marvelous compilative
> and interpretive job you've done on your website. I
> don't consider myself a great expert on either the
> Goths and the Eruli, but I am quite interested in them
> because of the connection with Eastern Europe. If I
> happen to be wrong on this or that point (like for
> instance ny earlier belief that the Eruli were
> expelled from Scandinavia by the Dani in the mid-3rd
> c. which I have now abandoned after the explanations
> offered on the list)it certainly isn't the end of the
> world. Errare humanum est. And I appreciate the many
> new insights garnered here.

Thanks! I have not reached my own conclusion about the Heruls.
Discussions about such disagreements is a necessary way to learn more
and improve the arguments, so I appreciate all discussions showing
new angles and aspects.


> --- "Troels Brandt <trbrandt at p...>"
> <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> >
> > Agree, but neither do we know any other people
> > leaving the sphere of
> > the Romans to settle in Scandinavia.
>
> *****GK: Nothing as "massive" certainly. Is there not
> some evidence available for such migrations on an
> individual basis or by small groups? Like mercenaries,
> or others, going home?*****

Yes - of course there are archaeological indications, but no
historical people in that period.


>  This could even
> > be an event
> > connected with the escape of Roduulf to the court of
> > Theodorich -
> > making it very relevant to be mentioned in this way
> > and in this
> > chapter of Getica - with Roduulf as the source
> > before 519 AD.
>
> *****GK: Jordanes: "sunt quamquam et horum positura
> Grannii, Augandxi, Eunixi, Taetel, Rugi, Arochi,
> Rauii, quibus non ante multos annos Roduulf rex fuit,
> qui contempto proprio regno ad Theodorici Gothorum
> regis gremio convolavit et, ut desiderabat, invenit,
> hae itaque gentes, Germanis corpore et animo
> grandiores, pugnabant beluina saevitia."  How would
> you relate the departure of Roduulf from his kingdom
> with the expulsion of the Eruli by the Dani?*****

The scholars do not agree which people he ruled but most of these
people have been placed as small groups in the borderareas of the
Goetes. ONE possibility is that the Danish attack on the Heruls
changed the balance in the region, and made him a looser.

>
> >(Troels) I am not sure there was a real Herulian
> state, when
> > Datius left in
> > the 540'ies. I think their members of royal blood
> > still had a
> > dominating role in the society since a member was
> > worth going more
> > than 2*1100 km for, but their followers were
> > probably in the middle
> > of an integration-proces with a Scandinavian people,
>
> ****GK: Which one? If so wouldn't the king of that
> people have been involved in the story? I don't think
> it is essential for a political society to be
> independent through a king. The Eruli of the south
> didn't need one for a long time.*****

In my opinion the Svear. The methode is unknown, but Snorri described
a possible scenario in Ynglingesaga, where he explained how a take
over and integration could take place. Actually the Heruls had seen
Theodoric demonstrating how to make a "peaceful" merger a few years
earlier - which is not far from Snorri's reconstruction.

We do not know for sure which kings the Heruls had in Southern
Europe. There were several groups of Heruls, but probably only one
king connected to a pagan ancestor cult in the beginning. A problem
in this connection was the religion, and I believe that a pagan and a
christian group in Illyria could not agree about this. Ochus was
murdered and the Romans had a part in the conflict - making Procopius
an unreliable witness about the kingship. He was on the expelled
Suartuas' side.


> > If Jordanes' event took place 509-551 AD the first
> > settlements of the
> > Heruls should be found in the wooded borderareas
> > between Dani and
> > Gautoi.
>
> *****GK: Is the issue of the border between these
> groups for the period 510ss definitively settled?*****

No, but the borderareas between the fertile areas of Sweden were big,
trackless and useless making the groups less flexible. The first
historical descriptions are from the 9th century.

Troels



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